Law Enforcement Reform Thread (formerly Defund the Police) (4 Viewers)

[First Time Poster]

So I got busy the other day with the intention to revisit this topic and answer some of the responses put forward but I realized the thread was deleted. But, I felt we had good dialogue happening before I left so I wanted to restart the topic to get the conversation going again. We started some dialogue about it on the liberal board but I feel this topic transcends party lines so I'm making a MCB thread. Post #2, or my next post, is the post I made on the liberal board when asked to elaborate how I felt.

 

[Lapaz]

No, the police have lost the confidence of the public because of aggressive policing tactics that asks them to prevent future crime.

Take a step back for a second. Basically you are saying that black Americans are either lying, are stupid or are criminals themselves. I know that isn't what you probably meant, but that is the net effect. Take a random sample of black Americans (particularly black men), and ask them if they believe they've ever been unfairly targeted by police. And then take a random sample of white Americans and ask them if they've ever been unfairly targeted by police. How do you think that will turn out?

You keep narrowly focusing on statistics that show black Americans are not killed by cops at a higher rate per encounter than white Americans (statistics that aren't actually really complete b/c the per encounter are not well recorded). Missing the number of encounters the average black American has to face in this country.

I only have a few close black friends, but all of them have told me about times they were aggressively detained by cops (including being shoved and yelled at), often while their white friends who they were with were not questioned at all. I haven't surveyed my black acquaintances but just perusing their twitter feeds and other social media posts indicates that this is a common occurrence for them.

Are they liars or crazy? Or maybe they are actually experiencing something you aren't?

I believe blacks believe it and it seems most people do, but the stats don’t support it. I showed earlier that over 500,000 violent crimes were committed by blacks in 2015, and 233 were killed by police during arrests in 2017. I think the odds of one of those kids being killed during an arrest are a lot lower than the odds of one of those kids killing someone, since they are willing to commit an armed robbery.

My close black friend has never been beaten nor abused, but he believes he has been stopped for being black. My very white brother in law was beaten half to death. He is a a wise arse, so he probably mouthed off. That cop should’ve been arrested. I get not calling cops for minor crimes, but these kids committed armed robbery. They need to be off of the street. I do not want to live in a neighborhood that allows armed criminals to go free.

 

[Ayo]

Take a step back for a second. Basically you are saying that black Americans are either lying, are stupid or are criminals themselves. I know that isn't what you probably meant, but that is the net effect. Take a random sample of black Americans (particularly black men), and ask them if they believe they've ever been unfairly targeted by police. And then take a random sample of white Americans and ask them if they've ever been unfairly targeted by police. How do you think that will turn out?

there are studies done on this very question. And the answer is usually 70% or higher. Not just police encounters but being followed in stores, being called by retail security, being stopped by citizens and asked about their presence or their kids or their house or their car, presumed to be financially dependent on the state, and so on. And each time you add another instance type that number goes up and you’re essentially talking about every single black person in our country.

and it ain’t all made up. It’s not in their heads.

their blackness is with them all the time and They are keenly aware of it. And it’s not their awareness of it but rather society finds all sorts of ways to remind them of it.

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I believe blacks believe it and it seems most people do, but the stats don’t support it. I showed earlier that over 500,000 violent crimes were committed by blacks in 2015, and 233 were killed by police during arrests in 2017. I think the odds of one of those kids being killed during an arrest are a lot lower than the odds of one of those kids killing someone, since they are willing to commit an armed robbery.

My close black friend has never been beaten nor abused, but he believes he has been stopped for being black. My very white brother in law was beaten half to death. He is a a wise arse, so he probably mouthed off. That cop should’ve been arrested. I get not calling cops for minor crimes, but these kids committed armed robbery. They need to be off of the street. I do want to live in a neighborhood that allows armed criminals to go free.

Again, you are narrowly focusing on one statistic that isn't getting to the core of the issue and why this has blown up like it has. The black community has been complaining for decades about being unfairly targeted by police and society as a whole, and all too often interactions with the police (which they have way more of than white Americans) are flavored as harassment. And complaints don't get resolved satisfactorily, and when someone unarmed gets killed, there are often little repercussions for the ones doing the killing.

So, yeah, decades of unanswered justifiable complaints + very obvious example caught on video = large scale reaction. And yeah, there's going to be an overreaction. You think this is bad.... just wait 10 more years if we fail to make meaningful reforms now. The next one is likely to be even worse.

 

[Ayo]

I believe blacks believe it and it seems most people do, but the stats don’t support it.

stop pluralizing “stats”. You have one stat that you totally misunderstand.

In addition to 13th and Michelle Alexander, you can read a Wacquant essay online.

Deadly Symbiosis: When Ghetto and Prison Meet and Mesh

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/dddf/7286b22d2c021966ab1caa57040095d4097a.pdf

And he’s talked about the evolution of race-based brutality in “The Place of Violence in Jim Crow Rule.”

And his “trilogy” goes into greater detail. Urban Outcasts: A Comparative Sociology of Advanced Marginality; Punishing the Poor: The New Government of Social Insecurity; and Deadly Symbiosis: Race and the Rise of the Penal State

There are a ton of resources you can consult. Data. Statistics. Case studies. Quantitative. Qualitative. Mixed these. Sociology. History. Biography. Autobiography. Legal.

You have one stat and one black friend, who you think is lying. That stat is 100% but it’s just his imagination, right?

It’s apparent that your engagement with the black community is extremely limited. Because nobody who knows even a few black people and has an authentic relationship of trust would be so casually and callously dismissive of them and their experience as you routinely are.

 

[Lapaz]

Again, you are narrowly focusing on one statistic that isn't getting to the core of the issue and why this has blown up like it has. The black community has been complaining for decades about being unfairly targeted by police and society as a whole, and all too often interactions with the police (which they have way more of than white Americans) are flavored as harassment. And complaints don't get resolved satisfactorily, and when someone unarmed gets killed, there are often little repercussions for the ones doing the killing.

So, yeah, decades of unanswered justifiable complaints + very obvious example caught on video = large scale reaction. And yeah, there's going to be an overreaction. You think this is bad.... just wait 10 more years if we fail to make meaningful reforms now. The next one is likely to be even worse.

It may be true that blacks are mistreated in other ways, but the narrative of killings is what most people talk about, and it is what led the guy quoted in the article to regret calling the police. That is far more dangerous. Also, I’ve looked at arrest records from the FBI, and whites get arrested about 2 1/2 times as much as blacks. That means blacks as a proportion of society are arrested more, and maybe that is unjust, or perhaps they are committing more crimes. I don’t know, but I think I’ve shown police aren’t killing blacks more, so I tend to lean towards police aren’t as bad in other areas as perceived. I know cops can be arses and I hate that, but I also think misperceptions lead to more troublesome encounters. I know my good black friend is very distrustful of cops and carries a chip on his shoulder, despite not being mistreated badly, but he believes he is treated differently.

 

[Ayo]

You can add Bryan Stevenson’s name and work and advocacy and scholarship to the list. And his work is totally accessible. Short articles. TEDtalks and other videos.

You keep coming back to one thing, one stat. And you continually botch it. And you ignore everything else because it shows how wrong your conclusion is but damned if you’re gonna give an inch.

Bryan Stevenson | Equal Justice Initiative

Founder and Executive Director of EJI.

eji.org

LibGuides: Just Mercy: A Story of Justice & Redemption: Criminal Justice Statistics

Use this guide to find and evaluate information and resources related to social justice.

guides.stlcc.edu

Bryan Stevenson: It’s time to change the narrative around race and poverty

To have a healthy nation, we must face the past and connect with those who still suffer, civil rights lawyer Bryan Stevenson told thousands at Learn Serve Lead.

www.aamc.org

Bryan Stevenson’s Death-Defying Acts | NYU Law Magazine

blogs.law.nyu.edu

 

[DaveXA]

Ultimately, we're at the point where you guys are talking about 2 different issues. The problem I see is the discussion is starting from two different assumptions. We would have to back up and start the discussion with both starting with the same assumptions. I just think further discussion on this issue will be unproductive because the approaches to the topic are so far apart. Might be time to move on. Just a thought.

 

[Ayo]

Ultimately, we're at the point where you guys are talking about 2 different issues. The problem I see is the discussion is starting from two different assumptions. We would have to back up and start the discussion with both starting with the same assumptions. I just think further discussion on this issue will be unproductive because the approaches to the topic are so far apart. Might be time to move on. Just a thought.

i think it goes beyond that. To merely say “two different issues” makes it seem like they are equal in weight and credibility and verifiability. And they aren’t, even if they are different (and I don’t think they are) - but they aren’t. There isn't a comparability in statistical analysis. There isn’t a rigorous application of standards like “statistical significance.” There isn’t an understandings of the basics of variables and terminology.

So it’s more than merely talking about two different things, imo.

Though I am in accord with you when it comes on the lack of future constructive path

But I have a ton of resources and recommendations for people who are interested in the discussion. Granted, the specifics of police budgets and “defunding” is something I am
Really not well versed on and, as a result, have been quite hesitant and circumspective any time that particular issue comes up. I’m more comfortable with the reasons why people feel some sort of reimagining or reconceptualization is in order.

 

[Lapaz]

You can add Bryan Stevenson’s name and work and advocacy and scholarship to the list. And his work is totally accessible. Short articles. TEDtalks and other videos.

You keep coming back to one thing, one stat. And you continually botch it. And you ignore everything else because it shows how wrong your conclusion is but damned if you’re gonna give an inch.

Bryan Stevenson | Equal Justice Initiative

Founder and Executive Director of EJI.

eji.org

LibGuides: Just Mercy: A Story of Justice & Redemption: Criminal Justice Statistics

Use this guide to find and evaluate information and resources related to social justice.

guides.stlcc.edu

Bryan Stevenson: It’s time to change the narrative around race and poverty

To have a healthy nation, we must face the past and connect with those who still suffer, civil rights lawyer Bryan Stevenson told thousands at Learn Serve Lead.

www.aamc.org

Bryan Stevenson’s Death-Defying Acts | NYU Law Magazine

blogs.law.nyu.edu

I've engaged with others that have engaged in good faith, but I've largely ignored your posts, because you've only offered snide remarks, dismissiveness, and red herrings, but this one seemed to be closer to an honest engagement, so I'll respond.

These links don't refute anything I've said. One is to FBI and other government stats which I've been using, and the other is to a lawyer that seeks justice. I do as well. I just don't buy into the extraordinary claim that police are unjustly killing more black people than white people. I used the best available evidence and showed that that claim is not true. As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I absolutely don't see extraordinary evidence to support the claim. The claim is all the more extraordinary since most police forces are integrated. The right ignores science because it doesn't suit them. This is a case of the left ignoring the facts. Show me the math that proves the claim and if it is good, then I'll give ground. We shouldn't ignore the evidence just because it doesn't suit us. The left is looking for a scapegoat for the killings of blacks disproportionately to the population, but ignore the fact that crimes are not committed proportionately to the population, which makes comparisons to the population ratio fallacious. The cops have discretion, and that discretion may not be used as well as it should in some cases, but not with respect to killing. My analysis isn't based on anecdotes nor emotion. If we can agree on the point blacks are not being killed disproportionately to the crimes they commit, then I'll stop focusing on that narrow point.

 

[Ayo]

I've engaged with others that have engaged in good faith, but I've largely ignored your posts, because you've only offered snide remarks, dismissiveness, and red herrings, but this one seemed to be closer to an honest engagement, so I'll respond.

Go back to my first post, which was entirely in good faith. And you didn't respond at all. There were points that you raised after that which I took time to respond to, and you didn't respond. And in fact, continued to contradict - with no acknolwedgment. And you're still doing it. Again, from the first sustained reply I had in this thread. This wasn't personal then. It isn't now. This wasn't in bad faith then. It isn't now.

I've provided links, my personal experience. You've dismissed it all and keep coming back to a point you don't understand, using data you don't understand, and you continue to respond as if you do.

I have spent a long time on this topic and you dismiss what I've written, all that I've posted.

You have offered a *single* data point - and it's not as if I am the only one who has seen this. Other posters have pointed it out, too.

I would disagree that I am dealing in bad faith. In fact, I think I've given your incredibly myopic posts more time than they deserve.

And I wasn't the one who tagged your post with a 'snide' or sarcastic emoji. That was you. When I explained that your conversation on police budget wasn't to be with you - you'd have to talk to the cop. But based on what the cop told me, your assumptions about funding weren't entirely accurate.

And when I've spent the better part of my career on this topic, and I've seen kids and families whose lives have been ruined, kids who have been locked up and expelled from school AFTER BEING PROVEN INNOCENT, I don't have much time and patience for your conclusion-leading amateur data analaysis.

You can think my responses are snide and dismissive.

But I would again counter that your attitude of these millions of lives adversely affected, demonstrably so, is much more 'dismissive' or 'snide' than anything I've done in response to someone who routinely demonstrates that you don't have the capacity to understand the topic and only return, again and again, to the same narrow, cherry-picked data point.

If you have a problem with me saying that your argument wouldn't pass muster in an entry level CRIM 101 class, that's not my problem - that's factual. I know, because I've taught these stats. I've taught these courses. I've graded these papers. It wouldn't get a passing grade. If you want to take that personally, that's up to you. I'm addressing the content of your post (or, more accurately, lack thereof).

So you can respond however you like. This is an issue that affects millions of people and you're not dealing forthright at all - you haven't since the beginnig of the thread. You came in with a single hammer and despite the number of nails - but not just nails - there are screws and bolts and staples and all manner of metaphorical fasteners in this complex, historical institution.

And you've not read Wacquant or Alexander or anyone else. I have 20 pages of references from my dissertation alone, so I won't run out of data if we went back and forth. And you want to tell me that I'm not dealing fairly here?

You can miss me with that accusation.

These links don't refute anything I've said. One is to FBI and other government stats which I've been using, and the other is to a lawyer that seeks justice. I do as well. I just don't buy into the extraordinary claim that police are unjustly killing more black people than white people..

Yes, they do. You didn't read them all. You read The New Jim Crow and the Wacquant essay and his three books last night? No, you didn't. So this claim that "they don't refute anything you've said" is totally without merit. The links on Stevenson's life and work speaks *directly* against your point, and you say it "doesn't refute"?

You didn't read it, clearly. And I'm somehow the one being disingenuous?

As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and I absolutely don't see extraordinary evidence to support the claim.

More hypocrisy here. It's amazing how thin your argument is, but it's somehow excepted from the same demands you make on others.

You know what else is an "extraordinary claim"? Law enforcement and the judicial system possess no elements of institutionalized bias.

Where is *your* extraordinary evidence? It's totally absent.

My analysis isn't based on anecdotes nor emotion.

you call this dealing fairly? That's not "dismissive" or "snide"?

Get over yourself.

I have listed my bona fides. You have one black friend you think is imagining things and you have one data point. And I'm the one using "emotion" and "anecdote" (they are case studies, by the way, and the fact that you don't know this is yet another example of your inability to grasp the basics of the field - again, you've no idea what you are talking about)? All the years I spent in the field work and databases, with statistics you don't even have access to, is just "anecdote" and "emotion."

Am I emotional? Sure. I don't know how you can research and work with kids whose lives have been ruined or irrevocably altered by a racist system and *not* be emotional. But, do you know that there are review boards and ethics committees and panels that review work for this reason? No, you don't, because you've never done the work.

The fact that you think "emotion" and "case studies" somehow make research and conclusions irrelevant is just more evidence supporting your utter lack of understanding of the field.

You want an actual discussion? Then you can start dealing evenly. You haven't been, with your data hatchet. So I totally disagree with your argument that I haven't been dealing fairly.

If the mods want to step in and tell me anywhere I am over the line or that my criticisms of your posts are personal rather than grounded in demonstrable data or support or experience I've included, they are free to let me know. My goal here isn't to legitimate your argument for you or make you, or anyone else here, feel that it has any 'statistical significance' or validity.

 

[Lapaz]

Go back to my first post, which was entirely in good faith. And you didn't respond at all. There were points that you raised after that which I took time to respond to, and you didn't respond. And in fact, continued to contradict - with no acknolwedgment. And you're still doing it. Again, from the first sustained reply I had in this thread. This wasn't personal then. It isn't now. This wasn't in bad faith then. It isn't now.

I've provided links, my personal experience. You've dismissed it all and keep coming back to a point you don't understand, using data you don't understand, and you continue to respond as if you do.

I have spent a long time on this topic and you dismiss what I've written, all that I've posted.

You have offered a *single* data point - and it's not as if I am the only one who has seen this. Other posters have pointed it out, too.

I would disagree that I am dealing in bad faith. In fact, I think I've given your incredibly myopic posts more time than they deserve.

And I wasn't the one who tagged your post with a 'snide' or sarcastic emoji. That was you. When I explained that your conversation on police budget wasn't to be with you - you'd have to talk to the cop. But based on what the cop told me, your assumptions about funding weren't entirely accurate.

And when I've spent the better part of my career on this topic, and I've seen kids and families whose lives have been ruined, kids who have been locked up and expelled from school AFTER BEING PROVEN INNOCENT, I don't have much time and patience for your conclusion-leading amateur data analaysis.

You can think my responses are snide and dismissive.

But I would again counter that your attitude of these millions of lives adversely affected, demonstrably so, is much more 'dismissive' or 'snide' than anything I've done in response to someone who routinely demonstrates that you don't have the capacity to understand the topic and only return, again and again, to the same narrow, cherry-picked data point.

If you have a problem with me saying that your argument wouldn't pass muster in an entry level CRIM 101 class, that's not my problem - that's factual. I know, because I've taught these stats. I've taught these courses. I've graded these papers. It wouldn't get a passing grade. If you want to take that personally, that's up to you. I'm addressing the content of your post (or, more accurately, lack thereof).

So you can respond however you like. This is an issue that affects millions of people and you're not dealing forthright at all - you haven't since the beginnig of the thread. You came in with a single hammer and despite the number of nails - but not just nails - there are screws and bolts and staples and all manner of metaphorical fasteners in this complex, historical institution.

And you've not read Wacquant or Alexander or anyone else. I have 20 pages of references from my dissertation alone, so I won't run out of data if we went back and forth. And you want to tell me that I'm not dealing fairly here?

You can miss me with that accusation.



Yes, they do. You didn't read them all. You read The New Jim Crow and the Wacquant essay and his three books last night? No, you didn't. So this claim that "they don't refute anything you've said" is totally without merit. The links on Stevenson's life and work speaks *directly* against your point, and you say it "doesn't refute"?

You didn't read it, clearly. And I'm somehow the one being disingenuous?



More hypocrisy here. It's amazing how thin your argument is, but it's somehow excepted from the same demands you make on others.

You know what else is an "extraordinary claim"? Law enforcement and the judicial system possess no elements of institutionalized bias.

Where is *your* extraordinary evidence? It's totally absent.



you call this dealing fairly? That's not "dismissive" or "snide"?

Get over yourself.

I have listed my bona fides. You have one black friend you think is imagining things and you have one data point. And I'm the one using "emotion" and "anecdote" (they are case studies, by the way, and the fact that you don't know this is yet another example of your inability to grasp the basics of the field - again, you've no idea what you are talking about)? All the years I spent in the field work and databases, with statistics you don't even have access to, is just "anecdote" and "emotion."

Am I emotional? Sure. I don't know how you can research and work with kids whose lives have been ruined or irrevocably altered by a racist system and *not* be emotional. But, do you know that there are review boards and ethics committees and panels that review work for this reason? No, you don't, because you've never done the work.

The fact that you think "emotion" and "case studies" somehow make research and conclusions irrelevant is just more evidence supporting your utter lack of understanding of the field.

You want an actual discussion? Then you can start dealing evenly. You haven't been, with your data hatchet. So I totally disagree with your argument that I haven't been dealing fairly.

If the mods want to step in and tell me anywhere I am over the line or that my criticisms of your posts are personal rather than grounded in demonstrable data or support or experience I've included, they are free to let me know. My goal here isn't to legitimate your argument for you or make you, or anyone else here, feel that it has any 'statistical significance' or validity.

Show me the math.

 

[Farb]

Agreed.

The only other article I could find on this particular community was from the NYT. It is behind a member wall so I chose not to post that link and instead post the link that was able to be read by everyone. The article in DW references and cites the NYT article so if there is something that makes that article incorrect compared to the original piece in the NYT, i am all ears and will have to take your word for it since I can't read the NYT, but I have a feeling it is the subject and not the publisher that some are not to fond of.

To each their own.

 

[Ayo]

Show me the math.

Such entitled arrogance. I wrote plenty, and you - again - have nothing substantive to respond with. You should at least make some account for your "I have more than just emotion and anecdote" snide remark. But I suppose that's too much to ask for, I guess. Just a single line demanding of others when you have no such demands of your own, aside from a bunch of assumptions and one grossly misinterpreted stat.

I've included a bunch of resources for you to look at already and you didn't - that was obvious. But if you insist, I am going to include a list of Facts, Statistics, Data and Resources that demonstrate that our law enforcement system and our judicial system is and has been racist.

Now, I am not operating under the delusion that you will explore all of these because you've shown no desire to engage in any sincere, material fashion. So this list isn't for you so much as it is for anyone/everyone else. And to illustrate that there's absolutely no comparable balance or equality in the discussion you're allegedly having. And to prove that this isn't personal - my objections have nothing to do with you as a person and everything to do with what you've asserted and how you've asserted it. It has no credibility nor validity.

Facts and Statistics:

1. Black kids are 600% more likely and Hispanic kids are 200% more likely to be disciplined, booked, arrested, etc for drug-related offenses than white kids, for the same offenses. The likelihood and incidence of use within the same age group is within 2-5% across ethnic groups.

2. Black youth represent 80%+ percent of incarcerated population in many states despite the fact that the general population of Black youth is 15 to 30%. White youth makes up 20-25% in many states where the population is 70%+ white. This means that a black child is 8 to 10 times more likely to be represented in incarcerated institutions while they are not nearly that likely to commit a crime resulting in incarceration. Actual incidence of criminal behavior is nowhere near 800% to 1000% more likely to be committed by blacks. To believe that requires a racist.

3. Richard Nixon and John Ehrlichman made their plans explicit to target black communities to break up their political power and their families by creating racialized policing practices and changing the sentencing of crimes committed by blacks. This was the genesis of the War on Drugs and it was created with an explicitly racist goal and this shaped the War on Drugs until the mid 2000s.

4. 60% of incarcerated people are of color despite making up 30% of the population, while white people make up 40% of the population, while making up 70% of the population. Black people are not 400-500% more likely to commit a crime, even using your statistics.

5. Black adult Americans are arrested on drug charges more than 10 times more often than whites despite comparable usage rates and incidence of committing of drug-related crimes.

6. The average black inmate serves the same number of years for his sentence for a drug-related offense as a white inmate will serve for a violent criminal offense.

7. For violent offenses, more blacks serve maximum sentences than whites - in raw numbers, even when controlling for repeat offenders and per capita.

8. The American bail system is rife with corruption and inequal treatment, with higher bail amounts set for blacks than for whites, even for the same offenses.

9. Blacks are more likely to serve pretrial time in jail (not prison) than whites.

10. Digitized, automated risk assessment systems that are used to set bail use algorithms that are inherently biased because of the programming used in designing their assessments and the result is the 'false-flagging' of blacks as high-risk 200% more often than whites.

11. Statistics for jail is much harder to come by than statistics for imprisonment. Jail and prison are not the same thing, and jail is a bigger racial problem, with greater disparities, than are found in prisons.

12. Whites are much more likely to find employment post-release than are Black convicts, with greater stigmatization as a result of their race and their incarceration/court record

13. Whites seek more punitive sentences for people of color than for white offenders for the same crime(s). This is a problem particularly when the legislative bodies in states and at the federal level are white.

14. Media representation of criminality is highly disproportional re: ethnicity when it comes to depicting offenders and crimes, feeding into the metonymical association of criminals and blacks that doesn't actually exist and this negative feedback loop feeds police policies and procedures.

15. Blacks constitute 13-15% of drug users, but 35-40% of drug arrests and 45-50% of drug convictions.

16. Not all 'encounters' are logged and many of these occurrences contribute to the pervasive harassment of people in communities of color and aren't reflected in the stats. This is also related to the slippery statistics and data of jails vs. prisons.

17. More than 90% of the youth booked as part of the New York City Clean Hallways Act in NYC public schools were black, despite the fact that they make up 20-25% of the student population in New York City

18. Blacks are sentenced, on average, to 20% longer times than whites for the same offenses.

19. Blacks and Hispanics are more likely to be denied parole than white offenders with comparable offenses and records

20. 70% of students who experience in-school arrests are Black and Latino despite making up 30% of the student population.

21. Blacks are 4 times more likely to be subjected to violence by law enforcement than whites while not committing more than 400% more crimes of any sort

22. More black kids are assigned to adult facilities or sentenced as adults than whites for comparable crimes and offenses.

There are more than 20 for you, across a broad swathe of law enforcement and treatment under the law. And I have a ton more where these come from.

In addition to those facts and statistics above, I'll include some resources there that go into more detail.

1. The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander

2. The 13th documentary on Netflix

3. Punishing the Poor: The New Government of Social Insecurity by Loic Wacquant

4. Urban Outcasts: A Comparative Sociology of Advanced Marginality by Loic Wacquant

5. Deadly Symbiosis: Race and the Rise of the Penal State by Loic Wacquant

6. Culture of punishment: Prison, society, and spectacle by Michelle Brown

7. Bad Boys: Public Schools in the Making of Black Masculinity by A.A. Ferguson

8. "The Color of Justice: Racial and Ethnic Disparity in State Prisons" by Ashley Nellis

9. "On the Racial Disproportionality of United States'Prison Populations" by Alfred Blumstein

10. "We Need to Talk about an Injustice" Ted Talk by Bryan Stevenson

11. Anne E. Casey Foundation: Building a Brighter Future for Children, Families and Communities

12. "The influence of race in juvenile justice processing" by Bishop and Frazier

13. "Racial disparities in official assessments of juvenile offenders: Attributional stereotypes as mediating mechanisms" by Bridges and Steen

14. The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America by Richard Rothstein

15. Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America by Ibram X. Kendi

16. "Serial Season 3 Podcast: Heading Back to Court... This Time in Cleveland" by This American Life

17. "The racial and ethnic typification of crime and the criminal typification of race and ethnicity in local television news" by Chiricos and Eschholz

18. "The hypercriminalization of Black and Latino youth in the era of mass incarceration" by V. Rios in Racializing justice, disenfranchising lives: The racism, criminal justice, and law reader by M. Marable, K. Middlemass, and I. Steinberg

19. Governing through crime: How the war on crime transformed American democracy and created a culture of fear by Johnathan Simon

20. "Seeing White - Episode 11: Danger" Podcast Episode by Scene on Radio (this episode's summary: undreds of years, the white-dominated American culture has raised the specter of the dangerous, violent black man. Host John Biewen tells the story of a confrontation with an African American teenager. Then he and recurring guest Chenjerai Kumanyika discuss that longstanding image – and its neglected flipside: white-on-black violence.)

There's another 20 that I pulled which vary in source - statistics-based article, peer review article, chapters in textbooks, entire textbooks, podcasts, government reports, TedTalks selected from across 30+ years to illustrate the historical nature of the racialized dynamic of our (in)justice system.

And I am picking and choosing from much, much more that I've read and researched and explored over my career.

 

[Lapaz]

Such entitled arrogance.

Oh, and this isn't dismissive or snide? I've included a bunch of resources for you to look at. But if you insist, I am going to include a list of Facts, Statistics, Data and Resources that demonstrate that our law enforcement system and our judicial system is and has been racist.

Facts and Statistics:

1. Black kids are 600% more likely and Hispanic kids are 200% more likely to be disciplined, booked, arrested, etc for drug-related offenses than white kids, for the same offenses. The likelihood and incidence of use within the same age group is within 2-5% across ethnic groups.

2. Black youth represent 80%+ percent of incarcerated population in many states despite the fact that the general population of Black youth is 15 to 30%. White youth makes up 20-25% in many states where the population is 70%+ white. This means that a black child is 8 to 10 times more likely to be represented in incarcerated institutions while they are not nearly that likely to commit a crime resulting in incarceration. Actual incidence of criminal behavior is nowhere near 800% to 1000% more likely to be committed by blacks. To believe that requires a racist.

3. Richard Nixon and John Ehrlichman made their plans explicit to target black communities to break up their political power and their families by creating racialized policing practices and changing the sentencing of crimes committed by blacks. This was the genesis of the War on Drugs and it was created with an explicitly racist goal and this shaped the War on Drugs until the mid 2000s.

4. 60% of incarcerated people are of color despite making up 30% of the population, while white people make up 40% of the population, while making up 70% of the population. Black people are not 400-500% more likely to commit a crime, even using your statistics.

5. Black adult Americans are arrested on drug charges more than 10 times more often than whites despite comparable usage rates and incidence of committing of drug-related crimes.

6. The average black inmate serves the same number of years for his sentence as a white inmate will serve for a violent criminal offense.

7. For violent offenses, more blacks serve maximum sentences than whites - in raw numbers, even when controlling for repeat offenders and per capita.

8. The American bail system is rife with corruption and inequal treatment, with higher bail amounts set for blacks than for whites, even for the same offenses.

9. Blacks are more likely to serve pretrial time in jail (not prison) than whites.

10. Digitized, automated risk assessment systems that are used to set bail use algorithms that are inherently biased because of the programming used in designing their assessments and the result is the 'false-flagging' of blacks as high-risk 200% more often than whites.

11. Statistics for jail is much harder to come by than statistics for imprisonment. Jail and prison are not the same thing, and jail is a bigger racial problem, with greater disparities, than are found in prisons.

12. Whites are much more likely to find employment post-release than are Black convicts, with greater stigmatization as a result of their race and their incarceration/court record

13. Whites seek more punitive sentences for people of color than for white offenders for the same crime(s). This is a problem particularly when the legislative bodies in states and at the federal level are white.

14. Media representation of criminality is highly disproportional re: ethnicity when it comes to depicting offenders and crimes, feeding into the metonymical association of criminals and blacks that doesn't actually exist and this negative feedback loop feeds police policies and procedures.

15. Blacks constitute 13-15% of drug users, but 35-40% of drug arrests and 45-50% of drug convictions.

16. Not all 'encounters' are logged and many of these occurrences contribute to the pervasive harassment of people in communities of color and aren't reflected in the stats. This is also related to the slippery statistics and data of jails vs. prisons.

17. More than 90% of the youth booked as part of the New York City Clean Hallways Act in NYC public schools were black, despite the fact that they make up 20-25% of the student population in New York City

18. Blacks are sentenced, on average, to 20% longer times than whites for the same offenses.

19. Blacks and Hispanics are more likely to be denied parole than white offenders with comparable offenses and records

20. 70% of students who experience in-school arrests are Black and Latino despite making up 30% of the student population.

21. Blacks are 4 times more likely to be subjected to violence by law enforcement than whites while not committing more than 400% more crimes of any sort

22. More black kids are assigned to adult facilities or sentenced as adults than whites for comparable crimes and offenses.

There are more than 20 for you, across a broad swathe of law enforcement and treatment under the law. And I have a ton more where these come from.

In addition to those facts and statistics above, I'll include some resources there that go into more detail.

1. The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander

2. The 13th documentary on Netflix

3. Punishing the Poor: The New Government of Social Insecurity by Loic Wacquant

4. Urban Outcasts: A Comparative Sociology of Advanced Marginality by Loic Wacquant

5. Deadly Symbiosis: Race and the Rise of the Penal State by Loic Wacquant

6. Culture of punishment: Prison, society, and spectacle by Michelle Brown

7. Bad Boys: Public Schools in the Making of Black Masculinity by A.A. Ferguson

8. "The Color of Justice: Racial and Ethnic Disparity in State Prisons" by Ashley Nellis

9. "On the Racial Disproportionality of United States'Prison Populations" by Alfred Blumstein

10. "We Need to Talk about an Injustice" Ted Talk by Bryan Stevenson

11. Anne E. Casey Foundation: Building a Brighter Future for Children, Families and Communities

12. "The influence of race in juvenile justice processing" by Bishop and Frazier

13. "Racial disparities in official assessments of juvenile offenders: Attributional stereotypes as mediating mechanisms" by Bridges and Steen

14. The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America by Richard Rothstein

15. Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America by Ibram X. Kendi

16. "Serial Season 3 Podcast: Heading Back to Court... This Time in Cleveland" by This American Life

17. "The racial and ethnic typification of crime and the criminal typification of race and ethnicity in local television news" by Chiricos and Eschholz

18. "The hypercriminalization of Black and Latino youth in the era of mass incarceration" by V. Rios in Racializing justice, disenfranchising lives: The racism, criminal justice, and law reader by M. Marable, K. Middlemass, and I. Steinberg

19. Governing through crime: How the war on crime transformed American democracy and created a culture of fear by Johnathan Simon

20. "Seeing White - Episode 11: Danger" Podcast Episode by Scene on Radio (this episode's summary: undreds of years, the white-dominated American culture has raised the specter of the dangerous, violent black man. Host John Biewen tells the story of a confrontation with an African American teenager. Then he and recurring guest Chenjerai Kumanyika discuss that longstanding image – and its neglected flipside: white-on-black violence.)

There's another 20 that I pulled which vary in source - statistics-based article, peer review article, chapters in textbooks, entire textbooks, podcasts, government reports, TedTalks selected from across 30+ years to illustrate the historical nature of the racialized dynamic of our (in)justice system.

And I am picking and choosing from much, much more that I've read and researched and explored over my career.

None of those have anything to do with cop killings. You’re raising matters related to law enforcement and the judicial system. The defunding of the police advocates want that because they believe the cops are killing blacks during arrests that can be handled by others. I’m still waiting on the math to show the disproportionate killings. I don’t want a percentage. Some of the things you cited may be explained by unjust laws, some by who is committing the crime, and some by unfair treatment. I have never denied that some problems exist. I deny the primary narrative of cops killing blacks disproportionately. Do you agree that that narrative is wrong? If not, show me the math.

 

[Ayo]

None of those have anything to do with cop killings. You’re raising matters related to law enforcement and the judicial system. The defunding of the police advocates want that because they believe the cops are killing blacks during arrests that can be handled by others. I’m still waiting on the math to show the disproportionate killings. I don’t want a percentage. Some of the things you cited may be explained by unjust laws, some by who is committing the crime, and some by unfair treatment. I have never denied that some problems exist. I deny the primary narrative of cops killing blacks disproportionately. Do you agree that that narrative is wrong? If not, show me the math.

As expected.

And it's in there. You responded less than 10 minutes of my posting of that, so I can see how you missed it.

Not to mention the absurdity of "the entire system of law enforcement and legal proceedings is racist. The school to prison pipeline is racist. The incarceration of youth is racist. THe jail system is racist. The bail and bond system is racist. The incarceration in prisons is racist. The sentencing is racist. The police patrolling practices are racist. The sentencing is racist. The violence used in 'encounters' is racist. But the shooting and the killing? Nope. That's the non-racist island in the Racist Sea"

forest for the tree<s>s</s> my dude

The defunding of the police advocates want that because they believe the cops are killing blacks during arrests that can be handled by others.

totally incorrect - I even posted an example that you responded to that had nothing to do with this. You're only cherry picking and distorting so that never, ever have to admit you are incorrect about anything

 

[Lapaz]

As expected.

And it's in there. You responded less than 10 minutes of my posting of that, so I can see how you missed it.

Not to mention the absurdity of "the entire system of law enforcement and legal proceedings is racist. The school to prison pipeline is racist. The incarceration of youth is racist. THe jail system is racist. The bail and bond system is racist. The incarceration in prisons is racist. The sentencing is racist. The police patrolling practices are racist. The sentencing is racist. The violence used in 'encounters' is racist. But the shooting and the killing? Nope. That's the non-racist island in the Racist Sea"

forest for the tree<s>s</s> my dude



totally incorrect - I even posted an example that you responded to that had nothing to do with this. You're only cherry picking and distorting so that never, ever have to admit you are incorrect about anything

I’m not debating the entire system. I’m debating that police aren’t killing blacks disproportionately. The defund the police movement has many actors with different desires, but at the heart of it is the belief that the police are killing blacks indiscriminately. You keep wanting to make this about everything else. I just want to debunk that narrative. Do you believe the police are killing blacks disproportionately, and if so show me THAT proof. I don’t want proof on abuse nor incarcerations. I want to settle that narrow point which is a widely held belief.

 

[Ayo]

They have really embraced the bigotry, xenophobia, racism angle. Their online media presence on Facebook is, imo, *hugely* problematic and contributes mightily to Facebook becoming the cess pool it's becoming.

And just today, Unilever pulled it funding.

I would love to see more companies boycott Facebook until they actually do something about the rampant proliferation of actual fake news, racism, etc. And the only thing Zuckerberg understands is money, and it's already led to a response, within the same day.

Facebook needs to hemorrhage more

And Coca Cola "paused" funding across all social media platforms - good. I mean, I know they are corporations and I don’t have neoliberal faith in their self correcting altruism.

however, it seems to be the only lever than can apply enough pressure on them to take a closer look an an unethical gaming of an algorithm amplifying bigotry and violence

So i guess I’ll take it where I can get it.

Facebook Stock Drops As Unilever Joins List Of Those To Halt Ads

Facebook stock dropped as Unliver joined a growing list of companies to announce they are pulling ad spending on the platform because of divisive issues.

www.investors.com

 

[MT15]

I’m not debating the entire system. I’m debating that police aren’t killing blacks disproportionately. The defund the police movement has many actors with different desires, but at the heart of it is the belief that the police are killing blacks indiscriminately. You keep wanting to make this about everything else. I just want to debunk that narrative. Do you believe the police are killing blacks disproportionately, and if so show me THAT proof. I don’t want proof on abuse nor incarcerations. I want to settle that narrow point which is a widely held belief.

lapaz, you started your “proof” with a completely made up number that 80% of the time that police kill somebody they are attempting to arrest murderers. This is my best recollection because that was a long time ago in the thread and I’m not going back over the whole thing. There’s no basis for this number, it just seemed right to you. You admitted it was an assumption. Everything you did after that was tainted by this made up assumption.

You can’t just pick a number, and then use it to do calculations and then say those calculations have any validity at all. I know you think it’s reasonable, or more precisely that it feels reasonable to you, but thats not how science works, even the social sciences. (Sorry Oye, I take crap from the physicists and chemists, so a poor biologist has to give crap to the social scientists. )

You are arguing based on something you made up. And you are doing it with someone who has studied the criminal justice system for more than 10 years, and who has authored papers on this subject.

Sometimes, you just feel like you know something, but you really don’t know it. Or rather it’s really not the way you think it is. I think this is one of those times.