James Mattis today l understand why everyone loved him. (1 Viewer)

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The moose

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GrandAdmiral

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It will be interesting to see whether his words will cause others to start pushing back. Murkowski has always been an independent voice in the Senate. I wonder if others will follow.

 

insidejob

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It will be interesting to see whether his words will cause others to start pushing back. Murkowski has always been an independent voice in the Senate. I wonder if others will follow.

We can only hope at this point. The Senate as a whole (GOP) hasn't shown any inkling of backing off of licking Trump's boots.
 

CoolBrees

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"When I saw General Mattis' comments yesterday I felt like perhaps we are getting to a point where we can be more honest with the concerns that we might hold internally and have the courage of our own convictions to speak up," Murkowksi said on Capitol Hill.

Bold my emphasis. From the article posted above, is this quote from Murkowski, in the first paragraph.

I am so glad we, as a Senate, are starting to maybe approach a time when you might stop lying and grow a spine.

How does she even have the ability to stand? She should be a spineless puddle on the floor. I hope she loses so bad. She is the worst. Always plays the “maybe I will side with the D’s on this, I need to think” card on every issue and never does squat but follow along.
 

Saintamaniac

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Trump is a desperate and cornered man. He has to win re-election or he faces jail and he knows it. Because of that I felt like we were witnessing the slow fall of democracy in America as we know it. Trump already has the republicans in his pocket and pretty much the supreme court as well as I have no confidence that save for Roberts, the remaining 4 conservatives would go along party lines. Mattis and the other generals (even Kelly now) forcefully speaking out made me believe that the military leaders were sending a subtle message to trump that the military would not go along with any desperate plans such as trying to cancel the election or something else nefarious or unconstitutional.
 

SaintForLife

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Mattis resigned because Trump wanted to pull troops out of Syria and Afghanistan. I thought we all wanted less wars and miltary involvements in other countries? I'm sure the counter argument will have something to do with Russia.

 

TaylorB

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Mattis resigned because Trump wanted to pull troops out of Syria and Afghanistan. I thought we all wanted less wars and miltary involvements in other countries? I'm sure the counter argument will have something to do with Russia.

Well 11 minutes before you posted ☝, I posted 👇 in a separate thread in which you had been participating, so I’m not sure why you didn’t respond to me directly, especially since your post is more responsive to what I said than what Saintamaniac said.
I am reminded of Mattis’ resignation letter which appeared to be in response to his Syria decision and how the power void would benefit Russia.
While you are generally right about why Mattis resigned — Syria and Afghanistan — Trump’s abrupt decision to withdraw from Syria stood to benefit Russia by leaving a power void there. Mattis’ resignation letter seemed to me to refer to his disagreements with Trump’s policy regarding our treatment of allies and “malign actors,” which would include abruptly leaving the Kurds at the benefit of Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc.

You may disagree that that’s what Mattis was saying in his letter, but it is clear that the void created by an abrupt US withdrawal in Syria would inure to the benefit of Russia, et al., and that Mattis resigned over that withdrawal.
 

SaintForLife

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Well 11 minutes before you posted ☝, I posted 👇 in a separate thread in which you had been participating, so I’m not sure why you didn’t respond to me directly, especially since your post is more responsive to what I said than what Saintamaniac said.
Are you serious? You are asking why I didn't respond to you in another thread instead of posting in the thread that was actually about Mattis? I didn't really take that thread too seriously since it was presented as something new by the media when those guys have been against Trump from the beginning. Colin Powell has endorsed the Democratic nominee for the last 4 presidential elections. Bush and Romney were against Trump in the last election. How is that considered news?

While you are generally right about why Mattis resigned — Syria and Afghanistan — Trump’s abrupt decision to withdraw from Syria stood to benefit Russia by leaving a power void there. Mattis’ resignation letter seemed to me to refer to his disagreements with Trump’s policy regarding our treatment of allies and “malign actors,” which would include abruptly leaving the Kurds at the benefit of Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc.

You may disagree that that’s what Mattis was saying in his letter, but it is clear that the void created by an abrupt US withdrawal in Syria would inure to the benefit of Russia, et al., and that Mattis resigned over that withdrawal.
My goodness. You guys connect Russia to everything possible. I don't understand the obsession to claim Russia is this big superpower and threat to us and that Putin is an evil genious.

Mattis is one that supports perpetual war. Its no surpise he would mention Russia with the media and the left's infatuation with Russia. I thought those on the left were against war and the military industrial complex. That all went out the window when Trump was elected and he stated a desire to not be involved in all these wars.
 

TaylorB

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My goodness. You guys connect Russia to everything possible. I don't understand the obsession to claim Russia is this big superpower and threat to us and that Putin is an evil genious.

Mattis is one that supports perpetual war. Its no surpise he would mention Russia with the media and the left's infatuation with Russia. I thought those on the left were against war and the military industrial complex. That all went out the window when Trump was elected and he stated a desire to not be involved in all these wars.
It wasn’t just Mattis, the media and “the left” that thought withdrawal from Syria benefitted Russia. Lindsey Graham, Marco Rubio, and Cory Gardner said the same thing after the Syria withdrawal announcement, at the same time Mattis resigned:


The problems posed by an abrupt Syria withdrawal seemed obvious to many people on both sides of the aisle. It is not hypocritical for those who want the Syria conflict to be resolved to also want the proposed exit to be strategically beneficial to the US as opposed to the other countries or actors who would most likely fill that void in our absence. If Iraq taught us anything, it is that we have a vested interest in what happens when we leave.
 

TaylorB

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Are you serious? You are asking why I didn't respond to you in another thread instead of posting in the thread that was actually about Mattis?
Yes, since you appeared to be criticizing my post, I was wondering why you posted It in a separate thread (and one I’ve never posted in), instead of in direct response to what I said. Especially since it was much more responsive to my post than to the ongoing discussion in this thread. I felt like my post was being called out, but indirectly.
 

MT15

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How long do we need to stay to support the Kurds?
This is such a bad strawman. You know the way Trump handled the withdrawal was wrong, yet you are willing to support his bumbling effort at doing a favor for Erdogan at the expense of an ally who actually supported our efforts in the region. You know this caught everyone off guard, our military, our state dept, the Kurds.

Trump makes rash, reckless decisions that benefit himself personally instead developing and carrying out reasoned rational foreign policy to advance US goals.
 

SaintForLife

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It wasn’t just Mattis, the media and “the left” that thought withdrawal from Syria benefitted Russia. Lindsey Graham, Marco Rubio, and Cory Gardner said the same thing after the Syria withdrawal announcement, at the same time Mattis resigned:


The problems posed by an abrupt Syria withdrawal seemed obvious to many people on both sides of the aisle. It is not hypocritical for those who want the Syria conflict to be resolved to also want the proposed exit to be strategically beneficial to the US as opposed to the other countries or actors who would most likely fill that void in our absence. If Iraq taught us anything, it is that we have a vested interest in what happens when we leave.
I don't think referencing the Neocons Graham and Rubio helps your argument. They both support any and every war where the miltary industrial complex makes money.
 

SaintForLife

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This is such a bad strawman. You know the way Trump handled the withdrawal was wrong, yet you are willing to support his bumbling effort at doing a favor for Erdogan at the expense of an ally who actually supported our efforts in the region. You know this caught everyone off guard, our military, our state dept, the Kurds.

Trump makes rash, reckless decisions that benefit himself personally instead developing and carrying out reasoned rational foreign policy to advance US goals.
What was your opinion on Obama withdrawing troops from Iraq?
 

SaintForLife

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Yes, since you appeared to be criticizing my post, I was wondering why you posted It in a separate thread (and one I’ve never posted in), instead of in direct response to what I said. Especially since it was much more responsive to my post than to the ongoing discussion in this thread. I felt like my post was being called out, but indirectly.
You posted in that thread after my 2 posts. I never saw your post in that thread until you mentioned it here. I know that almost every criticism of Trump's foreign policy from those on the left includes them trying to link it to Russia no matter how flimsy the charge.
 

TaylorB

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I don't think referencing the Neocons Graham and Rubio helps your argument. They both support any and every war where the miltary industrial complex makes money.
I never expected to convince you that hastily withdrawing from Syria was beneficial to Russia. I was responding to this comment 👇 which suggested that we (the left) connect everything to Russia:
My goodness. You guys connect Russia to everything possible. I don't understand the obsession to claim Russia is this big superpower and threat to us and that Putin is an evil genious.

Mattis is one that supports perpetual war. Its no surpise he would mention Russia with the media and the left's infatuation with Russia. I thought those on the left were against war and the military industrial complex.
Because my comments about Mattis' resignation apparently left you astonished over "the left's infatuation with Russia," I simply pointed out that it wasn't just "the left" that thought the Syria withdrawal would benefit Russia. Graham, Rubio and Gardner are prominent Republicans who have said that the Syria withdrawal benefits Russia.

Even if we accept your theory that Graham and Rubio have ulterior motives -- and I am no fan of either -- there are articulable reasons why a sudden withdrawal would benefit Russia. Russia is fighting a proxy war in Syria because they have strategic interests in Syria. When the US leaves, Russia's influence as to what happens there as the conflict resolves increases dramatically. Given Mattis' comments on the issue, I'm open to considering that this factored into his resignation. That does not require additional connecting of dots between Trump and Putin, and does not necessarily speak to Mattis believing in some broader conspiracy. It seems like a logical connection to make, particularly in light of Mattis' specific reference to Russia in his resignation letter.

At a minimum, I think that what I suggested about Mattis' resignation is something over which reasonable minds could differ. You seem 1000% confident that I'm wrong, you're right, and anyone who disagrees with your position is not credible and/or being disingenuous. You're certainly entitled to think that way, but if you do, there's not much to discuss.
 

SaintForLife

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I never expected to convince you that hastily withdrawing from Syria was beneficial to Russia. I was responding to this comment 👇 which suggested that we (the left) connect everything to Russia:

Because my comments about Mattis' resignation apparently left you astonished over "the left's infatuation with Russia," I simply pointed out that it wasn't just "the left" that thought the Syria withdrawal would benefit Russia. Graham, Rubio and Gardner are prominent Republicans who have said that the Syria withdrawal benefits Russia.

Even if we accept your theory that Graham and Rubio have ulterior motives -- and I am no fan of either -- there are articulable reasons why a sudden withdrawal would benefit Russia. Russia is fighting a proxy war in Syria because they have strategic interests in Syria. When the US leaves, Russia's influence as to what happens there as the conflict resolves increases dramatically. Given Mattis' comments on the issue, I'm open to considering that this factored into his resignation. That does not require additional connecting of dots between Trump and Putin, and does not necessarily speak to Mattis believing in some broader conspiracy. It seems like a logical connection to make, particularly in light of Mattis' specific reference to Russia in his resignation letter.

At a minimum, I think that what I suggested about Mattis' resignation is something over which reasonable minds could differ. You seem 1000% confident that I'm wrong, you're right, and anyone who disagrees with your position is not credible and/or being disingenuous. You're certainly entitled to think that way, but if you do, there's not much to discuss.
It's probably hard to tell from your perspective, but you guys are obsessed with Russia. I'm curious what you think we should do to Russia in response to them interfering in out election and trying to create chaos. You do realize that the US is the king of interfering in other countries affairs right? I'm not excusing Russia's actions, but acting like the sky is falling because Russia did what the US does and many other countries is confusing.

Are you not aware that Graham and Rubio are Neocons and pretty much support any and every conflict? Schiff isn't a neocon, but he's in the pocket of the military industrial complex just like Graham and Rubio.

I'm not disputing everything that Mattis said in his resignation, but I don't trust anyone who wants us to always be involved in wars.

Can you explain what our interests are in remaining in Syria and Afghanistan besides Russia gaining more power? Besides why would it matter to us if they gain more power? Are we worried aboit being in a conflict with Russia? That seems highly unlikely. We are unfortunately trying to do the same thing with Venezuela currently.

We need to stop trying to be the worlds policeman and interfering in other countries militarily. You would think we would learn that after Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc. The reason why we haven't learned that lesson is the miltary industrial complex that the corporate media pretty much ignores. Follow the money.
 

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