Healthcare in America (2 Viewers)

[zztop]

Thought maybe there should be a dedicated topic about healthcare policy/affordability/progress (or lack thereof)

 

[RobF]

If you googled “states that have attempted to pass single payer healthcare legislation” as someone suggested and read why such endeavors failed to come to fruition, you would learn that they couldn’t make the numbers work. Now maybe those folks aren’t as smart as you. Maybe those folks all have their heads under a rock. Maybe those folks have no awareness whatsoever of the costs in US healthcare. Or maybe you don’t know as much as you think.

See, the thing is, unlike you, I actually do research stuff rather than just assuming whatever springs into my head must be the truth.

But to reiterate, you don't even really need to actually research this, you just need to not have your head under a rock; there is no question whatsoever that single payer healthcare can be substantially more efficient than the current US healthcare model, particularly because the current US healthcare model is wildly, notoriously, inefficient.

So they could, and still can, make the numbers work - because of course they can, this isn't hypothetical, others nations already do it - the hurdle is political.

Which is why there are quite a lot of substantial continuing efforts to implement single payer healthcare legislation.

Despite your earlier fantasy that no-one has even attempted it.

 

[TampaJoe]

See, the thing is, unlike you, I actually do research stuff rather than just assuming whatever springs into my head must be the truth.

But to reiterate, you don't even really need to actually research this, you just need to not have your head under a rock; there is no question whatsoever that single payer healthcare can be substantially more efficient than the current US healthcare model, particularly because the current US healthcare model is wildly, notoriously, inefficient.

So they could, and still can, make the numbers work - because of course they can, this isn't hypothetical, others nations already do it - the hurdle is political.

Which is why there are quite a lot of substantial continuing efforts to implement single payer healthcare legislation.

Despite your earlier fantasy that no-one has even attempted it.

Well at least the folks who actually tried in this country under our laws and with our population and demographic, political, legal and financial challenges failed to make the numbers work. That is the reality here.

And that is the point. You can say alllllll you want and make all the claims you want. But unless and until you can sell that to voters and then successfully implement the solution, it isn’t the reality here. What works in one place under one system doesn’t necessarily transfer to another system. Maybe it can in “theory” but what works in theory doesn’t always translate in reality.

ACA was sold just over a decade ago by many of the same people as the solution. Now many of the same people are trying to replace ACA with still another government solution they promise will solve the health care problem. Same song, second verse, only the words are different. It still ends the same.

Implement it in a state. Prove the concept in this country with our people under our laws. There is absolutely no reason to force a solution on the entire country hoping it will work.

 

[RobF]

Well at least the folks who actually tried in this country under our laws and with our population and demographic, political, legal and financial challenges failed to make the numbers work. That is the reality here.

And that is the point. You can say alllllll you want and make all the claims you want. But unless and until you can sell that to voters and then successfully implement the solution, it isn’t the reality here. What works in one place under one system doesn’t necessarily transfer to another system. Maybe it can in “theory” but what works in theory doesn’t always translate in reality.

ACA was sold just over a decade ago by many of the same people as the solution. Now many of the same people are trying to replace ACA with still another government solution they promise will solve the health care problem. Same song, second verse, only the words are different. It still ends the same.

Implement it in a state. Prove the concept in this country with our people under our laws. There is absolutely no reason to force a solution on the entire country hoping it will work.

"Despite differing projections, all three studies showed that single payer was economically feasible. In reality, the Vermont plan was abandoned because of legitimate political considerations." - John E. McDonough, Dr.P.H., M.P.A., writing in the New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 372, no. 17.

"LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU THE NUMBERS DON'T WORK THE NUMBERS DON'T WORK THE NUMBERS DON'T WORK" - @TampaJoe

Seems pretty apparent that Joe can't accept it's a political problem, because we also all know where in particular that problem is most manifest, and that's evidently unacceptable to Joe, so he's stuck just repeating "the numbers don't work" over and over again no matter how increasingly ignorant it becomes.

But why does he have to be stuck here? Go outside Joe! Touch grass! Shout that the numbers don't work at it! It'll achieve as much as it is here, and you'd get some fresh air!

 

[TampaJoe]

"Despite differing projections, all three studies showed that single payer was economically feasible. In reality, the Vermont plan was abandoned because of legitimate political considerations." - John E. McDonough, Dr.P.H., M.P.A., writing in the New England Journal of Medicine, Vol. 372, no. 17.

"LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU THE NUMBERS DON'T WORK THE NUMBERS DON'T WORK THE NUMBERS DON'T WORK" - @TampaJoe

Seems pretty apparent that Joe can't accept it's a political problem, because we also all know where in particular that problem is most manifest, and that's evidently unacceptable to Joe, so he's stuck just repeating "the numbers don't work" over and over again no matter how increasingly ignorant it becomes.

But why does he have to be stuck here? Go outside Joe! Touch grass! Shout that the numbers don't work at it! It'll achieve as much as it is here, and you'd get some fresh air!

I didn't say the problems were strictly financial. I don't believe the numbers work and if you read about the attempts in states other than Vermont, they had trouble making the financing work. You failed to mention that. You failed to mention that some efforts failed because it entailed significant increases in state taxes. you focuses ONLY on the political because in your biased opinion "of course the numbers work". Except when they didn't.

You tell me Rob. Give me a good reason NOT to implement it in a state to prove the concept works in our country, under our laws, with our population and health care delivery systems. Why not prove the concept on a state level? I mean if you can't get a state controlled in all branches by Democrats to vote to implement this proposal, why should the rest of the country adopt a plan even the bluest of states can't or won't adopt?

You haven't addressed what the increase in demand will do to costs or where the government is going to get the additional dollar to fund the program. Payroll taxes will have to increase for every working American. You can try to convince them as they did in ACA that there costs will decrease and the cost curve will bend but you can't prove it and it certainly didn't work with ACA. Promises made. Promises not kept. That is the government track record in healthcare cost management.