Did the U. S. win the Cold War? (1 Viewer)

[bird]

If so, what does that mean and what were the fruits of that victory?

If not, what actually did happen? Has democracy "spread"? Is there more stability or less?

My answer to the first question is no. We did not "win" anything. The fruits were rotting on the branch and vine. The collapse of the USSR and the elimination of the Iron Curtain is not the same as "winning".

What actually happened was a shift in alignments and relations. Some nations rose and some fell. The U.S. is not more secure. Democracy did not spread like we believed it would. The 'Stans are corrupt and autocratic. Other countries assumed to be democratic like Turkey and Hungary and, to a degree, Poland, have shifted with the rise of RW authoritarian politicians/movements.

On a side note the concept of a fast strike, small force military has become discredited much like the concept of military from WW2. In-and-out with minimal casualties and a so-called "purpose" and "exit strategy" is a chimera. War changes. We have not changed.

 

[BullSheetBuddha]

You seem to have.

More reading comprehension problems?

Me:

Firstly, I was in school during that time and I barely, if at all, remember it/duck and cover.

 

[H B Lowrey]

More reading comprehension problems?

Me:

Yeah, and your desk saved you.

 

[SamAndreas]

If peace is difficult to quantify, then how is the claim "spot on"?



I've seen that video before. Nice graphics in that video. But "number of deaths" is not really a measuring stick of peace, it is just counting deaths. Because more people die in conflict A than it conflict B. it doesn't mean there was peace where conflict B happened, does it now?

Just the wars, conflicts and dirty wars the U.S. has been involved in since the end of WWII defeat the claim. Then the Middle East raises its hand and puts the nail in the coffin. Then Africa just rubs it in. Then Ibero-America adds insult to injury.

And even the video you posted list just 20 of the deadliest conflicts since WWII, so even your video defeats the claim of "relative peace".

Pedantic side note: if you are going to talk numbers, at least to me, it doesn't look good when 5 seconds in you don't give accurate data. In 2015, the average life span in the U.S. was 78.94 years, not 80.

Did you ever hear the phrase, perfection is the arch enemy of pretty damned good?

 

[SamAndreas]

I get that, but america was certainly not at peace over those 70 years. It is true however that we've not had a constitutionally declared war since WWII. But we don't gaf about the constitution when it comes to our wars anymore.

During my time of service Winston Churchill's fondest wish had been realized.

"Although personally I am quite content with existing explosives, I feel we must not stand in the path of improvement."-- Winston Churchill

I enjoy accomplishment I've had a hand in, it could have been far worse, instead it was far better.

 

[H B Lowrey]

During my time of service Winston Churchill's fondest wish had been realized.

"Although personally I am quite content with existing explosives, I feel we must not stand in the path of improvement."-- Winston Churchill

I enjoy accomplishment I've had a hand in, it could have been far worse, instead it was far better.

That's speculation. And we still have plenty of time for worse.

 

[SamAndreas]

That's speculation. And we still have plenty of time for worse.

Speculation is not the appropriate term to describe my contention, I did not include elements which speculated about the future, I spoke of only the past. With regard to casualty figures they are always disputed, but my explanation utilizes those disputed figures for their relative magnitudes. Where the separation between WWII and prior is many multiples larger than post WWII.

Contention is the appropriate term. I contended that there has been a relative peace post WWII. Very unlike the period of wars prior to WWII. I based my contention on relatively firm facts.

 

[H B Lowrey]

Speculation is not the appropriate term to describe my contention, I did not include elements which speculated about the future, I spoke of only the past. With regard to casualty figures they are always disputed, but my explanation utilizes those disputed figures for their relative magnitudes. Where the separation between WWII and prior is many multiples larger than post WWII.

Contention is the appropriate term. I contended that there has been a relative peace post WWII. Very unlike the period of wars prior to WWII. I based my contention on relatively firm facts.

I recognize your assertions, that was not the point. Others exist.

 

[SamAndreas]

I recognize your assertions, that was not the point. Others exist.

Adjectives exist as well and I used one. I used the adjective "relative" to modify the noun "peace." I said "relative peace" which neutered your point before you even made it.

And that brings up the pointless forest which is near the conclusion of THE POINT:

 

[SystemShock]

Did you ever hear the phrase, perfection is the arch enemy of pretty damned good?

No, I have not. What does that have to do with the topic?

 

[SamAndreas]

No, I have not. What does that have to do with the topic?

It doesn't have anything at all to do with the topic.

It has to do with where you took the conversation when you said:

"Pedantic side note: if you are going to talk numbers, at least to me, it doesn't look good when 5 seconds in you don't give accurate data. In 2015, the average life span in the U.S. was 78.94 years, not 80."

 

[bird]

i am reminded of the line from Avengers: Age of Ultron -

"I think you're confusing peace with quiet."

To me, peace implies a harmony between peoples and nation-states. Not a kumbaya, hold hands, flowers everywhere but a combination of live, let live and care for fellow humans. The absence of full-scale open conflict does not imply peace.

But then humans haven't really been good at the whole "peace" thing.

 

[H B Lowrey]

Adjectives exist as well and I used one. I used the adjective "relative" to modify the noun "peace." I said "relative peace" which neutered your point before you even made it.

And that brings up the pointless forest which is near the conclusion of THE POINT:

Sure, everything is relative is it not. Dead Afghans, Iraqis and all the rest are relatively peaceful for the both of us. This nation has spent much more time at war that it ever has a peace, but it's all been relatively peaceful for most americans. Especially since the power structure decided to discontinue the draft due to too much public involvement during the Viet Nam fiasco. Now the american public is relatively uninvolved.