Colorado Baker back in the News (1 Viewer)

[Optimus Prime]

Same baker that was sued for not making a gay wedding cake which went all the way to the Supreme Court
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The owner of a specialty cakes shop in Lakewood, Colo., who first made national headlines for refusing to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding, was back in court on Monday.

Masterpiece Cakeshop’s owner Jack Phillips was sued by a gay couple in 2012 after citing religious beliefs as his reason for not making their wedding cake. In 2018 his case made its way to the U.S. Supreme Court, when the justices granted him a partial victory.

On Monday, the Christian baker went on trial in another lawsuit, this time involving Denver-based attorney Autumn Scardina, a transgender woman who said that the baker didn’t sell her a cake because she was transgender.

Scardina attempted to order a cake on the same day in 2017 when the Supreme Court justices announced they would hear Phillips appeal on the same-sex wedding case. He refused, so she took matters to court.

Scardina initially filed a complaint with the state in 2018. The Colorado Civil Rights Commission found probable cause that she had been discriminated against.

Phillips then sued the state for harassment in federal court..............

In her complaint Scardina claimed that Phillips refused to sell her a birthday cake “because she is transgender, despite repeatedly advertising that they would sell birthday cakes to the general public, including LGBT individuals.”

The cake she wanted to order was blue on the outside and pink on the inside to celebrate her gender transition. But when she called the shop, she was told that they didn’t make cakes for “sex changes.”

Masterpiece Cakeshop’s website says that Phillips will “happily create custom cakes for anyone,” but he won’t “create custom cakes that express messages or celebrate events that conflict with his religious beliefs.”

Philips has maintained that he won’t create cakes to celebrate events that he, as a Christian, doesn’t agree with.

On Monday, during a virtual trial, Phillips’ attorney Sean Gates argued that his refusal to bake the cake was simply about its message, and not about discriminating against Scardina.

“The message would be that he agrees that a gender transition is something to be celebrated,” Gates said, according to The Associated Press............

Colorado cake baker back in court over alleged anti-LGBTQ discrimination (msn.com)

 

[JRad]

She ordered the cake on the same day it was announced that the baker's previous case was going to the Supreme Court. I find it highly unlikely she did not tell the baker about the symbolism of the cake. It seems she was trying to make a point.

I agree - this seems like it was meant to be almost a trap.

 

[DaveXA]

I agree - this seems like it was meant to be almost a trap.

The timing was suspect for sure. Ordinarily, I'd give the customer the benefit of the doubt. But this one has me .

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

The owners will probably end up in hell because of their hateful beliefs. I don't think Jesus likes people using his beliefs to perpetrate hate.

 

[FullMonte]

She ordered the cake on the same day it was announced that the baker's previous case was going to the Supreme Court. I find it highly unlikely she did not tell the baker about the symbolism of the cake. It seems she was trying to make a point.

My opinion on this is the same as the gay wedding case -- the bakery specializes in custom cakes, not a commodity. So, I think someone has a right to refuse to make something custom that goes against their religious beliefs.

So, basically, if she told him that this cake was meant to symbolize her transition - and it seems likely that she did. Then I think he has a right to refuse service. If she did not tell him the symbolism, and he refused her service based on who she was, then he ought to be sued.

My take is much simpler. They make wedding cakes. So, if a person wants a wedding cake for a same sex wedding, the baker should make the cake. That's their business, they make wedding cakes, so denying to make one because you don't like it's a same-sex wedding would seem to violate the state's discrimination law.

On the other hand, they don't make transition cakes, so they are well within their rights to say that is not something they normally make, so they won't make an exception and make one now. There is no way to claim discrimination if they won't make you a cake that they have never made for anyone.

 

[SystemShock]

The owners will probably end up in hell because of their hateful beliefs. I don't think Jesus likes people using his beliefs to perpetrate hate.

Jesus doesn't like LGBT either.

 

[samiam5211]

Jesus doesn't like LGBT either.

Jesus never said he had a problem with LGBT, but his dad certainly is a homophobe.

 

[LivefromDC]

I don't get people sometimes. I've bought lots of cakes before. I've never once had to explain what the cake was for. Just go in, tell them how you want the cake designed and be done with it. It seems to me the only reason the baker knew was because the patron told him what it was for. If it were me, I would have just said it was a personal thing, get the cake and do what I do.

Yes, you have. You've gone in and said, "hey, I need a birthday cake" or I want "Happy Birthday, daughter" written on the cake. You have kids so either you or wife have done this. And people ALWAYS do it. "It's for an engagement party". "I need a cake for a celebration. My daughter's going to Yale". "How much for a groom's cake? Can you put one of those bride catching the groom figurines on it? LOL". It's normalized. I would bet Good money that this "Christian" baker has even made a cake that said "Finally Free" for a recent divorcee. Those are common too. Or perhaps this baker thought that the cake was for a recently escaped slave but I digress. Even if you anecdotally have never done it, people do it all the time. People, all of us who identify with our birth gender and are heterosexual, we don't think about it because we are part of the majority.

Let me give you an example. Have you ever heard someone say during an acceptance speech, "I'd like to thank my wife/husband for their love and support..." No one ever bats an eye about that. But when someone in a same sex marriage says the same thing, what we hear is "ugh, why do they have to push their agenda on us?"

What this case is about is people just wanting to live their lives like everyone else, i.e., the majority.

 

[LivefromDC]

Jesus doesn't like LGBT either.

I see what you did there.

 

[Bigdaddysaints]

Jesus doesn't like LGBT either.

I bet he would have made them a cake though.

 

[SystemShock]

Jesus never said he had a problem with LGBT, but his dad certainly is a homophobe.

... Holy Trinity and all..

 

[SystemShock]

I see what you did there.

What did I do?

 

[DaveXA]

Yes, you have. You've gone in and said, "hey, I need a birthday cake" or I want "Happy Birthday, daughter" written on the cake. You have kids so either you or wife have done this. And people ALWAYS do it. "It's for an engagement party". "I need a cake for a celebration. My daughter's going to Yale". "How much for a groom's cake? Can you put one of those bride catching the groom figurines on it? LOL". It's normalized. I would bet Good money that this "Christian" baker has even made a cake that said "Finally Free" for a recent divorcee. Those are common too. Or perhaps this baker thought that the cake was for a recently escaped slave but I digress. Even if you anecdotally have never done it, people do it all the time. People, all of us who identify with our birth gender and are heterosexual, we don't think about it because we are part of the majority.

Let me give you an example. Have you ever heard someone say during an acceptance speech, "I'd like to thank my wife/husband for their love and support..." No one ever bats an eye about that. But when someone in a same sex marriage says the same thing, what we hear is "ugh, why do they have to push their agenda on us?"

What this case is about is people just wanting to live their lives like everyone else, i.e., the majority.

I don't know about anywhere else, but I haven't heard people comment that at an acceptance speech here. Same sex marriages aren't a big deal here. It's common enough that most don't flinch when they see it these days where I live. I'm sure that's not the case in some areas. But whatever.

I've never had to explain why I'm making a cake. I just tell them I'm making a birthday cake, or anniversary cake or special occasion, but that's more specific to what goes on the cake. No cake maker has ever asked what it was for. They just made what I asked them to make. I'm sure there are limits, and any cake maker can refuse service if they think something about the cake is out of bounds.

And this isn't really about that imo. This is about someone trying to capitalize on a baker who's already in the public eye and set him up. Had he not been in the news already, this particular case probably never happens.

I'm not saying the baker Is right. I think he should just make a cake and not worry about what people do with it. That said, if it's something he considers to be vulgar or whatever, he should have a right to refuse to make the case. As long as it's applied equally to everyone, that should be fine.

 

[LivefromDC]

I don't know about anywhere else, but I haven't heard people comment that at an acceptance speech here. Same sex marriages aren't a big deal here. It's common enough that most don't flinch when they see it these days where I live. I'm sure that's not the case in some areas. But whatever.

I've never had to explain why I'm making a cake. I just tell them I'm making a birthday cake, or anniversary cake or special occasion, but that's more specific to what goes on the cake. No cake maker has ever asked what it was for. They just made what I asked them to make. I'm sure there are limits, and any cake maker can refuse service if they think something about the cake is out of bounds.

And this isn't really about that imo. This is about someone trying to capitalize on a baker who's already in the public eye and set him up. Had he not been in the news already, this particular case probably never happens.

I'm not saying the baker Is right. I think he should just make a cake and not worry about what people do with it. That said, if it's something he considers to be vulgar or whatever, he should have a right to refuse to make the case. As long as it's applied equally to everyone, that should be fine.

EDIT: I misunderstood what you wrote. I remember the backlash when Jodie Foster gave her acceptance speech at the Golden Globes.

Okay, I know you're familiar with this one. When the first openly gay player was drafted and kissed his partner, there was backlash because of the display of affection. Many players hug and kiss their wife or girlfriend. We don't get the outrage in those instances.

I think public challenges like this are how you change laws. It was done constantly during the Civil Rights movement.

 

[DaveXA]

You've never heard someone thank their spouse during the Oscars or Grammys? Really?

Okay, I know you're familiar with this one. When the first openly gay player was drafted and kissed his partner, there was backlash because of the display of affection. Many players hug and kiss their wife or girlfriend. We don't get the outrage in those instances.

I think public challenges like this are how you change laws. It was done constantly during the Civil Rights movement.

Lol, you misunderstood, or I didn't make myself clear, I've never heard anyone here where I live, comment that a LGBT individual thanking their spouse was somehow weird or icky. It's really not that big a deal because a lot of our friends are LGBT, and it's common enough that few people flinch when seeing it.

The backlash about the gay player isn't all that surprising because there are still a lot of backwards thinking people in the country. I don't run into that much here because I tend to avoid those types if I can help it.

 

[LivefromDC]

Lol, you misunderstood, or I didn't make myself clear, I've never heard anyone here where I live, comment that a LGBT individual thanking their spouse was somehow weird or icky. It's really not that big a deal because a lot of our friends are LGBT, and it's common enough that few people flinch when seeing it.

The backlash about the gay player isn't all that surprising because there are still a lot of backwards thinking people in the country. I don't run into that much here because I tend to avoid those types if I can help it.

Sure. Same here. But I don't think it's enough for us to not mind the LGBT+ community not being expected to hide their sexuality and identity in public. When challenges like this are made, it is purposeful. That shouldn't change how you feel about the goal of such challenges, continuing to push our society to be accepting, or at least equal, for all.

 

[efil4]

She ordered the cake on the same day it was announced that the baker's previous case was going to the Supreme Court. I find it highly unlikely she did not tell the baker about the symbolism of the cake. It seems she was trying to make a point.

My opinion on this is the same as the gay wedding case -- the bakery specializes in custom cakes, not a commodity. So, I think someone has a right to refuse to make something custom that goes against their religious beliefs.

So, basically, if she told him that this cake was meant to symbolize her transition - and it seems likely that she did. Then I think he has a right to refuse service. If she did not tell him the symbolism, and he refused her service based on who she was, then he ought to be sued.

but if fed/state/local laws prohibit him from discriminating based on his own beliefs, then he has a problem.

You can refuse service to anyone- just have to be sure that refusal doesnt exceed the boundaries set forth by federal, state or local laws.

Just bake the @$!@## cake.

Gods not gonna refuse you entry because you baked a cake for a trans

BTW he baked this. I thought cool...

 

[Complex Kid]

but if fed/state/local laws prohibit him from discriminating based on his own beliefs, then he has a problem.

You can refuse service to anyone- just have to be sure that refusal doesnt exceed the boundaries set forth by federal, state or local laws.

Just bake the @$!@## cake.

Gods not gonna refuse you entry because you baked a cake for a trans

BTW he baked this. I thought cool...

Leviticus 11:9-12


9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

 

[DaveXA]

but if fed/state/local laws prohibit him from discriminating based on his own beliefs, then he has a problem.

You can refuse service to anyone- just have to be sure that refusal doesnt exceed the boundaries set forth by federal, state or local laws.

Just bake the @$!@## cake.

Gods not gonna refuse you entry because you baked a cake for a trans

BTW he baked this. I thought cool...

I think he and I probably agree with your points, but that doesn't make what they did less of a setup. And establishments have the right to refuse service for a broad variety of reasons as long as the refusal of service is applied equally to everyone.