Christ or Anti-christ. (The choice is yours) (1 Viewer)

[sonic boom]

As far as a Christian perspective, this is really the bottom line. You are either for Christ, or Anti-Christ. You either trust Jesus, or work against Jesus.

Christians are also supposed to love our enemy, so if you are an Anti-Christ, please feel this isn't to cause hate, but rather understanding.




Matthew 12:30 (New Living Translation)

Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me.

 

[SystemShock]

As far as a Christian perspective, this is really the bottom line. You are either for Christ, or Anti-Christ. You either trust Jesus, or work against Jesus.

Christians are also supposed to love our enemy, so if you are an Anti-Christ, please feel this isn't to cause hate, but rather understanding.




Matthew 12:30 (New Living Translation)

Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me.

Typical authoritarian, despotic tenet. There s no middle ground. There is no neutrality. If you are not my ally, you are my enemy. And if you are my enemy, you are going to burn in hell: that's some way to show love.

Kind of sucks for all of those poor souls who never had the fortune to have Jesus appear to them to show them the way, who never heard of him until they were conquered, enslaved, and tortured into Christianity.

 

[sonic boom]

Typical authoritarian, despotic tenet. There s no middle ground. There is no neutrality. If you are not my ally, you are my enemy. And if you are my enemy, you are going to burn in hell: that's some way to show love.

Kind of sucks for all of those poor souls who never had the fortune to have Jesus appear to them to show them the way, who never heard of him until they were conquered, enslaved, and tortured into Christianity.

It wasn't the original plan. The original plan was the Garden of Eden (Paradise), but Adam and Eve sinned and were booted out. Cain murdered Abel....etc. This is man with out God. Man has decided to follow his own ways and worship the devil, but you can always repent, but this is foolish to most. God is Holy and has invited everyone to be restored back to eternal beings like the angels who didn't follow the devil, but most don't want to come due to a variety of reasons....Such as the statements you made above.

Man is evil, all have sinned. Possibly even SystemShock, but maybe you don't believe in sin, or wrong and right. By the way, how do you know what's right or wrong? If you don't believe in God, do you place yourself as the judge of knowing what's good and evil? You really have no place to stand. You might have 50 years left, what happens when you die? Are you just worm food? How will people know about your great knowledge, when you pass? This is seriously something to think about.

You can see when people have freedom of choice there is death, war, great injustice, and hosts of other problems. God even flooded the Earth and killed off all those who didn't seek after God, but here we are now, and look at the mess we are in.

Well, it appears that you know what's best and right, more than the God of the Bible. Are you also without sin? Can you create the Universe in 7 days? Did you die on across for the benefit of mankind? Were you alive when the world was formed?

Finally, only God can judge, that's why we should all fear God, and do HIS will.



Isaiah 45:9

"Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'?

Romans 9:21

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

 

[SystemShock]

It wasn't the original plan. The original plan was the Garden of Eden (Paradise), but Adam and Eve sinned and were booted out. Cain murdered Abel....etc. This is man with out God. Man has decided to follow his own ways and worship the devil, but you can always repent, but this is foolish to most. God is Holy and has invited everyone to be restored back to eternal beings like the angels who didn't follow the devil, but most don't want to come due to a variety of reasons....Such as the statements you made above.

Man is evil, all have sinned. Possibly even SystemShock, but maybe you don't believe in sin, or wrong and right. By the way, how do you know what's right or wrong? If you don't believe in God, do you place yourself as the judge of knowing what's good and evil? You really have no place to stand. You might have 50 years left, what happens when you die? Are you just worm food? How will people know about your great knowledge, when you pass? This is seriously something to think about.

You can see when people have freedom of choice there is death, war, great injustice, and hosts of other problems. God even flooded the Earth and killed off all those who didn't seek after God, but here we are now, and look at the mess we are in.

Well, it appears that you know what's best and right, more than the God of the Bible. Are you also without sin? Can you create the Universe in 7 days? Did you die on across for the benefit of mankind? Were you alive when the world is formed?

Finally, only God can judge, that's why we should all fear God, and do HIS will.



Isaiah 45:9

"Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, 'What are you making?' Does your work say, 'The potter has no hands'?

Romans 9:21

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

That's a lot to unpack. But let's start with the story of the garden of Eden. You have two naive people who have no concept of right or wrong, who are told not to eat from the tree of knowledge - which is problematic in on itself, as controlling knowledge is yet another despotic tenet- who then are tricked into eating from said tree by an evil being.

Upon finding out - well, not really finding out, all-knowing and all - this all loving god punishes not only the man and the woman, but punishes every person ever who will live.

So I ask you: where is the morality in punishing the children, the children of the children, the children of the children of the children, and so on, for the actions of two people? What kind of despot does that?

Then the flood. God decides to kill every man, woman, children, baby in the entire world by drowning, which is not what you'd call a peaceful death, over "sin". Children, babies killed by drowning over the sins of the fathers.

Again, I'll ask you, where is the morality in that?

And think of the people who never knew of this God, who never heard of him, or his laws... men, women, children, drown to death without warning.

Again, where is the morality in that?

The fact is, the morality described in the Bible is immoral in the eyes of secular morality: we have abolished slavery, we don't stone gay people to death, women have a voice and are not the property of their husbands, we condemn genocide, and so on.

Many wars have been waged and inquisitions have been carried out in the name of the Christian god. The god of the Bible encouraged genocide. Thomas Aquinas, one of Christianity's superstars, believed the best non-christian is a dead non-Christian. The Spaniards enslaved an tortured Native Americans into Christianity. British and French enslaved and tortured Africans into Christianity. So t say that without God there is no war or death...

As for fearing someone who says they love you, that is the very essence of spousal abuse. Where is the morality n that?

 

[sonic boom]

That's a lot to unpack. But let's start with the story of the garden of Eden. You have two naive people who have no concept of right or wrong, who are told not to eat from the tree of knowledge - which is problematic in on itself, as controlling knowledge is yet another despotic tenet- who then are tricked into eating from said tree by an evil being.

Upon finding out - well, not really finding out, all-knowing and all - this all loving god punishes not only the man and the woman, but punishes every person ever who will live.

So I ask you: where is the morality in punishing the children, the children of the children, the children of the children of the children, and so on, for the actions of two people? What kind of despot does that?

Then the flood. God decides to kill every man, woman, children, baby in the entire world by drowning, which is not what you'd call a peaceful death, over "sin". Children, babies killed by drowning over the sins of the fathers.

Again, I'll ask you, where is the morality in that?

And think of the people who never knew of this God, who never heard of him, or his laws... men, women, children, drown to death without warning.

Again, where is the morality in that?

The fact is, the morality described in the Bible is immoral in the eyes of secular morality: we have abolished slavery, we don't stone gay people to death, women have a voice and are not the property of their husbands, we condemn genocide, and so on.

Many wars have been waged and inquisitions have been carried out in the name of the Christian god. The god of the Bible encouraged genocide. Thomas Aquinas, one of Christianity's superstars, believed the best non-christian is a dead non-Christian. The Spaniards enslaved an tortured Native Americans into Christianity. British and French enslaved and tortured Africans into Christianity. So t say that without God there is no war or death...

As for fearing someone who says they love you, that is the very essence of spousal abuse. Where is the morality n that?

I appreciate your response. Let's keep this friendly and let me know if I get out of hand. Deal?

Well, it's clear, you rejected God, so why would you spend time on trying to discredit the Bible? Isn't this just a fairy tales in your mind? I mean, you only have 50 years until your worm food, don't have better things to do?

If trusting in Jesus is correct, than eternal life awaits. If not, we are both worm food, and there is nothing more to live on. If I had the mind set like you, then the last thing I would do is spend time trying to disprove a fairy tale. I would be partying like it's 1999 every day, but maybe your calling in life is to be an anti-christ?!?!

Once again, this means so much to you, like you a personal vendetta against God. Did something happen?

The Bible doesn't encourage genocide, bad governments do. That's why the U.S. did separation of Church in State, because Catholicism and power don't mix...Spanish Inquistion and countless murders by the Catholic Church....See The Fox Book of Martyrs. I'm sure your happy about the thought about having Joe Biden (Catholic) as president. Enjoy that!

Also, communism (non-religious) have been known for genocide, fascism is pretty horrible as well (Adolf Hitler). Even Republics and Socialist governments....Murdering millions of innocent babies that haven't been born.The Bible offers eternal life to all, that is quite the opposite, than genocide. You trying to disprove the Bible is encouraging eternal genocide, which is probably the worst thing a person can do with their life.

One question you cannot answer, how do you know right from wrong? I mean you believe in survival of the fittest, do you not? This is pretty close to what Adolf Hitler believed.

Isaiah 9:16

Those who guide this people mislead them, and those who are guided are led astray.


Matthew 18:6

"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 

[SystemShock]

Well, it's clear, you rejected God, so why would you spend time on trying to discredit the Bible? Isn't this just a fairy tales in your mind? I mean, you only have 50 years until your worm food, don't have better things to do?

I surely have much less than 50 years, but anyway, I don't have a problem with people believing whatever they want to believe, as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves, don't try to impose said beliefs on others, hurt society, stifle progress, defraud people, steal the patrimony of countries... but then organized religions go ahead and do all of that. And organized religions are based on their holy books, so root cause.

If trusting in Jesus is correct, than eternal life awaits. If not, we are both worm food, and there is nothing more to live on. If I had the mind set like you, then the last thing I would do is spend time trying to disprove a fairy tale. I would be partying like it's 1999 every day, but maybe your calling in life is to be an anti-christ?!?!

Pascal's wager aside, I give meaning to my life, my family gives meaning to my life, my friends give meaning to my life. the things I enjoy give meaning to my life, the things that are important to me give meaning to my life.

Frankly, it is a bit offensive that you'd think I am a nihilist because I don't believe in your god. Which is another reason why I speak against religion. People in general treat me different when they learn I am an atheist, and think a whole lot of awful things about me.

Once again, this means so much to you, like you a personal vendetta against God. Did something happen?

It'd be silly to have a vendetta against someone I don't believe exists. But, what happen was, being born into a Catholic family, growing older and disagreeing with the doctrine, looking at all of the contradictions, etc., I first started looking at the Bible through 20th century eyes, and I started learning about other religions, why they spread, where they spread, their tenets, prophets, miracles, prophesies, etc... and knowing that every person who has faith in one religion, believes all others to be false, I came to the realization, all holy books were written by men who didn't have nowhere near the knowledge we have of the universe today, and all religions are man made.

The Bible doesn't encourage genocide, bad governments do.

The Canaanites and the early teen virgins taken by the Israelites may disagree.

That's why the U.S. did separation of Church in State, because Catholicism and power don't mix...Spanish Inquistion and countless murders by the Catholic Church....See The Fox Book of Martyrs. I'm sure your happy about the thought about having Joe Biden (Catholic) as president. Enjoy that!

I am 100% sure Biden is not going to have a "spiritual advisor" yelling Trump was sent by God and "speaking in tongues" in the White House, deny marriage to people of the same sex, defund Planned Parenthood so they don't distribute contraceptives or perform abortions, install Handmaids in the SCOTUS, etc etc etc.

Also, communism (non-religious) have been known for genocide, fascism is pretty horrible as well (Adolf Hitler). Even Republics and Socialist governments....Murdering millions of innocent babies that haven't been born.

Communism, fascism, they can become religions in their own right, just like it happened in China, Germany... they just don't worship a metaphysical god.

The Bible offers eternal life to all, that is quite the opposite, than genocide. You trying to disprove the Bible is encouraging eternal genocide, which is probably the worst thing a person can do with their life.

You got me.

One question you cannot answer,

Very arrogant of you.

how do you know right from wrong? I mean you believe in survival of the fittest, do you not? This is pretty close to what Adolf Hitler believed.

Now I am pretty close to Hitler.

I think you need to understand what "survival of the fittest" means, where it comes from, what it refers to.

Matthew 18:6

"If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

But the little ones that don't believe, they are ok to trip?

 

[sonic boom]

Well, playing a victim seems trendy now, you joined the popular crowd.

So, no one misunderstands you anymore, tell me your religious beliefs, I mean your secular beliefs. You know darwinism, Big Bang, and code of ethics? And how do you know Atheism is correct, because you say so? Isn't being atheist mean, telling all religions they are wrong?!?! It surely looks like you are doing that in this forum.

You never answered how you figure what right and wrong is? You answer by saying, I'm mistaken, but offer nothing to change my mind.

Have you even read the Bible? I mean read from page to page?

The truth (Jesus) is supposed to be preached until the end of time, so you have that going for you.

Thanks again, for keeping at conversational level, rather than angry discourse.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I am going to chime in answering these questions for my part.

So, no one misunderstands you anymore, tell me your religious beliefs, I mean your secular beliefs. You know darwinism, Big Bang, and code of ethics? And how do you know Atheism is correct, because you say so? Isn't being atheist mean, telling all religions they are wrong?!?! It surely looks like you are doing that in this forum.

I think you misunderstand atheism. As an atheist, I approach the world from the standpoint of facts, evidence and reasoning. Imperfectly, to be sure, but I make a little progress every day. No religion has presented evidence and facts to sufficient to lead me to accept its tenets. I don't say to religions that they are "wrong" but rather than they have not convincingly made their case. Prove to me that God exists and I'll take another look.

That's not to say that "holy" books don't contain wisdom. They certainly do; many parables and stories in the Old and New Testaments, for example, provide insights into the human condition.

You never answered how you figure what right and wrong is? You answer by saying, I'm mistaken, but offer nothing to change my mind.

Some of what we consider to be right and wrong is innate within us as social primates. Other things we learn (or don't) from our parents and our community. Morality and ethics must be taught - even better demonstrated.

Thanks again, for keeping at conversational level, rather than angry discourse.

To you as well.

 

[sonic boom]

I am going to chime in answering these questions for my part.



I think you misunderstand atheism. As an atheist, I approach the world from the standpoint of facts, evidence and reasoning. Imperfectly, to be sure, but I make a little progress every day. No religion has presented evidence and facts to sufficient to lead me to accept its tenets. I don't say to religions that they are "wrong" but rather than they have not convincingly made their case. Prove to me that God exists and I'll take another look.

That's not to say that "holy" books don't contain wisdom. They certainly do; many parables and stories in the Old and New Testaments, for example, provide insights into the human condition.



Some of what we consider to be right and wrong is innate within us as social primates. Other things we learn (or don't) from our parents and our community. Morality and ethics must be taught - even better demonstrated.


To you as well.

You admit your philosophy is imperfect, or not accurate. I couldn't agree with you more!

 

[SystemShock]

Well, playing a victim seems trendy now, you joined the popular crowd.

You asked to keep this civil. I went from wanting soul genocide, to questions I cannot answer, to being pretty close to Hitler, you even managed a snipe at Joe Biden, now I am playing victim. Well played.

So, no one misunderstands you anymore, tell me your religious beliefs,

I have none.

I mean your secular beliefs. You know darwinism, Big Bang,

Do you mean science? This a common misguided tactic of apologists, trying to bring science down to the same level as religion. But science isn't a religion, and scientism isn't a thing. But in any case, I accept evolution and the big bang as the best explanations for the origins of our universe and species, respectively, based on the evidence we have and a method which has proven time and time again to produce accurate testable, falsifiable, repeatable, results.

and code of ethics?

I continue to develop that code, based on experiences, observations, and reason. One example is my views towards gay people. Growing up Catholic, I believed they were an aberration and that they were going to burn in hell, just like the Bible says, and just how the priest described them during mass. I don't think they are aberrations anymore.

And how do you know Atheism is correct, because you say so?

Atheism is simply a position of skepticism. Atheism simply means "without god". I don't believe any god exists. There is no evidence that supports the existence of any god.

Isn't being atheist mean, telling all religions they are wrong?!?! It surely looks like you are doing that in this forum.

Isn't it mean to tell people they are going to burn in hell for eternity over things like sexuality?

You never answered how you figure what right and wrong is? You answer by saying, I'm mistaken, but offer nothing to change my mind.

As with my code of ethics, I decide what is right and wrong, based on experiences, observation, and reason.

Have you even read the Bible? I mean read from page to page?

Yes. Have you read any other religious text end to end; other than the Bible/Christian texts?

The truth (Jesus) is supposed to be preached until the end of time, so you have the going for you.

I don't believe Jesus is "the truth".

 

[sonic boom]

You asked to keep this civil. I went from wanting soul genocide, to questions I cannot answer, to being pretty close to Hitler, you even managed a snipe at Joe Biden, now I am playing victim. Well played.


I have none.


Do you mean science? This a common misguided tactic of apologists, trying to bring science down to the same level as religion. But science isn't a religion, and scientism isn't a thing. But in any case, I accept evolution and the big bang as the best explanations for the origins of our universe and species, respectively, based on the evidence we have and a method which has proven time and time again to produce accurate testable, falsifiable, repeatable, results.


I continue to develop that code, based on experiences, observations, and reason. One example is my views towards gay people. Growing up Catholic, I believed they were an aberration and that they were going to burn in hell, just like the Bible says, and just how the priest described them during mass. I don't think they are aberrations anymore.


Atheism is simply a position of skepticism. Atheism simply means "without god". I don't believe any god exists. There is no evidence that supports the existence of any god.


Isn't it mean to tell people they are going to burn in hell for eternity over things like sexuality?


As with my code of ethics, I decide what is right and wrong, based on experiences, observation, and reason.


Yes. Have you read any other religious text end to end; other than the Bible/Christian texts?


I don't believe Jesus is "the truth".

"Yes. Have you read any other religious text end to end; other than the Bible/Christian texts?"

I did dabble in the occult, looked into Jewish writings, while looking for the truth in my younger years. This would be outside of Christian texts.

There is science fiction in science, which Christians call religion, or humanism, or secularism. It's the same way atheist treat Christians unfortunately. There is evidence or scientific proof of the Bible's accuracy, but the secular world says, it's religion. So, you know how it feels I guess now.

When have you seen nothing exploded?...Big Bang theory.....That's a complete joke. No one has ever seen that, ever! When has a dinosaur turned into a bird? No one has ever seen that, which it's why it's called science fiction by some Christian circles.

You play victim all you want. Do you think it's possible I could play the victim card? Guess what, I don't. You know why, nobody cares. Have you seen the news lately? Innocent people getting murdered on the streets....America is a secular nation now, it hardly reflects it's Protestant past in my mind.

I admit, your team (secular world) has won in America, well, it at least looks that way. I see Christian values being trampled on daily. The Christian voice has been silenced by political force in the mainstream. Kids have to be indoctrinated by secular views, and have to be mocked by professors in college. I could name some examples. This shows a lack of intelligence, rather than competence.

 

[Yggdrasill]

You admit your philosophy is imperfect, or not accurate. I couldn't agree with you more!

Try reading with an open mind rather than with confirmation bias. I was not referring to my philosophy but rather my ability to gather and analyze information. I'm talking about a thought process, not knowledge. The bases of rational inquiry are to accept that you don't know everything and to evaluate new information in an as unbiased a manner as possible - more critically if in conforms to what you think, more openly if it does not. I agree with Socrates that the wise person starts by accepting their own ignorance, and that the life worth living is an examined life.

You on the other hand appear not to have to think, because religion does that for you. You have failed to address a single contradiction in Christianity that SystemShock has raised. Your latest comment to me (above) is condescending, dismissive and without substance, and does nothing to foster the frank and respectful dialogue that you purport to want.

As SystemShock points out, atheists don't "believe" anything with regards to religion and science. Science is not a belief system, meaning it does not accept things on faith. It requires evidence, proofs, peer review, repeatable experiments, and - most crucially - welcomes change when a better explanation comes along. For example, I don't know with absolute certainty that the Big Bang Theory is true; all that I know is that it is the best explanation for the Universe that we now have.

 

[sonic boom]

Try reading with an open mind rather than with confirmation bias. I was not referring to my philosophy but rather my ability to gather and analyze information. I'm talking about a thought process, not knowledge. The bases of rational inquiry are to accept that you don't know everything and to evaluate new information in an as unbiased a manner as possible - more critically if in conforms to what you think, more openly if it does not. I agree with Socrates that the wise person starts by accepting their own ignorance, and that the life worth living is an examined life.

You on the other hand appear not to have to think, because religion does that for you. You have failed to address a single contradiction in Christianity that SystemShock has raised. Your latest comment to me (above) is condescending, dismissive and without substance, and does nothing to foster the frank and respectful dialogue that you purport to want.

As SystemShock points out, atheists don't "believe" anything with regards to religion and science. Science is not a belief system, meaning it does not accept things on faith. It requires evidence, proofs, peer review, repeatable experiments, and - most crucially - welcomes change when a better explanation comes along. For example, I don't know with absolute certainty that the Big Bang Theory is true; all that I know is that it is the best explanation for the Universe that we now have.

It does appear it's two against one, if that doesn't come across to negative. Maybe there are other Christians on the forum to help balance the discussion, or maybe you two have already scared them away?!?!

I heard a Rabbi once say (or close to this), people who believe in God, have no questions, and those who don't believe in God, have no answers. That's the bottom line really from my perspective. I'm sure there is a secular view that is contrary.

You admitted your belief system is flawed, but you probably will admit that your fundamental principles (being religious from my perspective) are not. While Christians believe everyone is flawed, Jesus is Lord, and the Bible is true. That is the conversation in a nutshell. You can slice it up, play victim, accuse, and undermine all you want, but that's the whole discussion. Rinse, dry, and repeat.

A circular discussion between believers and non-believers, Christians and people who oppose Christ, and people of the Book and people of the pope. I believe the pope represents all that is evil in the world, he represents a universal religion than can swallow up all religions, non-religious, and satanists. He will eventually lose, but it will sure be a bloody fight to the end.

 

[SystemShock]

I did dabble in the occult, looked into Jewish writings, while looking for the truth in my younger years. This would be outside of Christian texts.

"Dabbling" doesn't count. I meant religious texts like the Koran, or the Vedas. Jewish writings are the basis for Christianity, so those don't count.

There is science fiction in science, which Christians call religion, or humanism, or secularism.

No, there is not.

There is evidence or scientific proof of the Bible's accuracy.

There is not. If there is, show it. The videos you posted are not proof of anything.

When have you seen nothing exploded?...Big Bang theory.....That's a complete joke. No one has ever seen that, ever! When has a dinosaur turned into a bird? No one has ever seen that, which it's why it's called science fiction by some Christian circles.

Now you are reading from the Ray Comfort book.

I can turn it around and ask you, did you see your particular god create something from nothing? But anyway, the observable universe supports the theory, in how the universe is expanding and planets are getting further apart from each other, consistent with an explosion from an epicenter, ergo the name "big bang".

Dinosaurs to birds, this is a much longer, nuanced discussion, but the cliff notes version, it took millions of years. The fossil record is evidence of this.

And the reason evolution and the big bang are called "science fiction" in certain Christian circles, is that they fly in the face of the Book of Genesis.

You play victim all you want.

How am I playing the victim card? Please explain.

Do you think it's possible I could play the victim card? Guess what, I don't. You know why, nobody cares. Have you seen the news lately? Innocent people getting murdered on the streets....America is a secular nation now, it hardly reflects it's Protestant past in my mind.

Have you not read the history of the Protestant church?

I admit, your team (secular world) has won in America, well, it at least looks that way. I see Christian values being trampled on daily. The Christian voice has been silenced by political force in the mainstream. Kids have to be indoctrinated by secular views, and have to be mocked by professors in college. I could name some examples. This shows a lack of intelligence, rather than competence.

Now, who's the victim?

Didn't you hear, Amy Coney Barett was sworn in as a SC justice? Didn't you hear, Paula White is the White House spiritual advisor, who declares Trump being sent by Jesus himself, while she shouts prayers and "speaks in tongues" in the White House? Did you know Mike Pence is the VP?

If I told you i believe in Ganesha, and that my dying uncle will return as a cow, would you think of me as intelligent?

 

[sonic boom]

If I told you i believe in Ganesha, and that my dying uncle will return as a cow, would you think of me as intelligent?

When have I hinted that I think you are intelligent?!?! I see you as a bitter old man, that hates God. Correct me, if I'm wrong. Never seen you cheery or happy generally, or at least your posts reflecting that. You were quite abrasive towards me and my views on the saints report, I do appreciate your change of tone here.

I see the conversation has stalled, but maybe you don't see it. We don't see eye to eye, it's apparent. We are not in agreement. I don't see how the conversation is beneficial to either party, please help me see differently.

 

[Yggdrasill]

It does appear it's two against one, if that doesn't come across to negative. Maybe there are other Christians on the forum to help balance the discussion, or maybe you two have already scared them away?!?!

I heard a Rabbi once say (or close to this), people who believe in God, have no questions, and those who don't believe in God, have no answers. That's the bottom line really from my perspective. I'm sure there is a secular view that is contrary.

You admitted your belief system is flawed, but you probably will admit that your fundamental principles (being religious from my perspective) are not. While Christians believe everyone is flawed, Jesus is Lord, and the Bible is true. That is the conversation in a nutshell. You can slice it up, play victim, accuse, and undermine all you want, but that's the whole discussion. Rinse, dry, and repeat.

A circular discussion between believers and non-believers, Christians and people who oppose Christ, and people of the Book and people of the pope. I believe the pope represents all that is evil in the world, he represents a universal religion than can swallow up all religions, non-religious, and satanists. He will eventually lose, but it will sure be a bloody fight to the end.

I can't help it if you feel ganged up on, but that's certainly not my intent. I have been in your position many times in debates on other forums and find it invigorating. But to each his own.

I am baffled why you keep referring to my "belief system" and claiming that I have said it is flawed. Listen carefully and try to understand. I don't have a belief system because belief, by definition, means to accept something on faith, without proof or evidence. I rely on facts, evidence and lines of reasoning. That's why atheism is not a belief system. I don't assume God doesn't exist, nor do I claim that God could not exist; I'm simply saying that I haven't seen evidence to prove God's existence, whether it's the Christian god or any other. I am using my God-given (in your belief system) intellectual faculties to try to understand the world. I also recognize that my understanding of the world may not be entirely correct (hence my use of the word "imperfect"), and so I continue to seek new information, process it, and, with luck and effort, gain a better understanding. I see part of the human condition as one of constant striving for knowledge and improvement. I think it is likely impossible to reach a perfect understanding of the world, but it is certainly worth working towards. A journey rather than a destination, so to speak.

When have I played victim, or criticized your beliefs? In fact, I asked you to elaborate on your beliefs in another thread, which you have not done. What works for you works for you. But you started this thread saying anyone who doesn't believe in Christianity is anti-Jesus. I find much of what is attributed to Jesus in the Bible to be enlightened. But I don't see any evidence that Jesus was sent by a God or was the son of a God. I can assure you that I am not "anti-Jesus" but rather still of unconvinced of his divinity (or any divinity for that matter).

I have some questions about what your viewpoint and perhaps you can enlighten me. You talk about Christians quite monolithically. It has not been my experience that all Christians consider those who don't believe as they do to be "against Jesus" as you put it. Many leaders of various Christian denominations beyond to ecumenical organizations that include leaders of the Jewish and Muslim religious communities, and others as well. How do you explain that? Also, I see tremendous variation among Christians in terms of what they think on various topics from abortion to homosexuality.

Also, I find it interesting that you don't consider the Pope to be a Christian, since all Christians were Catholics until the Reformation.

Finally, could you explain in a little more detail what you mean when you say the you believe the Bible is "true." I have Southern Baptist friend who asserts that the Bible is literally true in every word. When I ask him about passages that tell believers to enslave those of other nations, or to kill anyone who works on the Sabbath or kill anyone who wears cloth made of different kinds of thread, etc.etc., his response is that, "That is the literal word of God but we're just not smart enough to understand it", which seems to me like a massive intellectual copout. Not to mention it begs the question of why a perfect God would make his/her message too difficult to understand?

I have other Christian friends who think many of the specifics are not important, that the Bible is more about broad strokes that it conveys in parables and metaphors.

Your thoughts?

 

[sonic boom]

I can't help it if you feel ganged up on, but that's certainly not my intent. I have been in your position many times in debates on other forums and find it invigorating. But to each his own.

I am baffled why you keep referring to my "belief system" and claiming that I have said it is flawed. Listen carefully and try to understand. I don't have a belief system because belief, by definition, means to accept something on faith, without proof or evidence. I rely on facts, evidence and lines of reasoning. That's why atheism is not a belief system. I don't assume God doesn't exist, nor do I claim that God could not exist; I'm simply saying that I haven't seen evidence to prove God's existence, whether it's the Christian god or any other. I am using my God-given (in your belief system) intellectual faculties to try to understand the world. I also recognize that my understanding of the world may not be entirely correct (hence my use of the word "imperfect"), and so I continue to seek new information, process it, and, with luck and effort, gain a better understanding. I see part of the human condition as one of constant striving for knowledge and improvement. I think it is likely impossible to reach a perfect understanding of the world, but it is certainly worth working towards. A journey rather than a destination, so to speak.

When have I played victim, or criticized your beliefs? In fact, I asked you to elaborate on your beliefs in another thread, which you have not done. What works for you works for you. But you started this thread saying anyone who doesn't believe in Christianity is anti-Jesus. I find much of what is attributed to Jesus in the Bible to be enlightened. But I don't see any evidence that Jesus was sent by a God or was the son of a God. I can assure you that I am not "anti-Jesus" but rather still of unconvinced of his divinity (or any divinity for that matter).

I have some questions about what your viewpoint and perhaps you can enlighten me. You talk about Christians quite monolithically. It has not been my experience that all Christians consider those who don't believe as they do to be "against Jesus" as you put it. Many leaders of various Christian denominations beyond to ecumenical organizations that include leaders of the Jewish and Muslim religious communities, and others as well. How do you explain that? Also, I see tremendous variation among Christians in terms of what they think on various topics from abortion to homosexuality.

Also, I find it interesting that you don't consider the Pope to be a Christian, since all Christians were Catholics until the Reformation.

Finally, could you explain in a little more detail what you mean when you say the you believe the Bible is "true." I have Southern Baptist friend who asserts that the Bible is literally true in every word. When I ask him about passages that tell believers to enslave those of other nations, or to kill anyone who works on the Sabbath or kill anyone who wears cloth made of different kinds of thread, etc.etc., his response is that, "That is the literal word of God but we're just not smart enough to understand it", which seems to me like a massive intellectual copout. Not to mention it begs the question of why a perfect God would make his/her message too difficult to understand?

I have other Christian friends who think many of the specifics are not important, that the Bible is more about broad strokes that it conveys in parables and metaphors.

Your thoughts?

I appreciate your effort, but find you incredibly boring. I do hope other Christians and maybe other people of different faiths can contribute to the thread. It's sad to see such a negative view point towards Christ and faith in here.

To bad there wasn't a more balanced forum, really think you guys are making it less than comforting for other chatters to join. Maybe that will change.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I appreciate your effort, but find you incredibly boring. I do hope other Christians and maybe other people of different faiths can contribute to the thread. It's sad to see such a negative view point towards Christ and faith in here.

To bad there wasn't a more balanced forum, really think you guys are making it less than comforting for other chatters to join. Maybe that will change.

Whether or not you find me boring, you have made almost 0 effort to engage in a conversation. I would have thought that someone who so profoundly professes their faith would be able to make a little more effort in the interest of furthering furthering that faith. And here I thought Christianity was a proselytizing religion.

Don’t worry. I won’t engage with you further and save you from boredom.