"Atheism has killed more people than Christianity" (1 Viewer)

[SystemShock]

This is a common argument that apologists keep bringing up over and over again, mostly - as far as I can tell - ever since Christopher Hitchens started mentioning the number of deaths caused by religion throughout the centuries, during debates, talks, and in written pieces. And the "evidence" presented for the apologist argument is always the four horsemen of the atheist apocalypse: Hitler, Stalin, Temüjin, and Zedong.

And every time I hear this argument, I want to smack apologists across the face, because none of the aforementioned ever killed anyone in the name of atheism.

Hitler was not an atheist. This is made obvious by passages written in Mein Kampf, speeches, letters to his generals, going as far as describing Jesus as being Aryan warrior. Even the belt buckles in nazi uniforms said "God is with us". So no atheism there.

The Ghengis Khan wasn't an atheist. He wasn't a Christian, but he's known to have been a Tengrist. He also is known to have been tolerant of other religions and by all accounts wanted to learn about the philosophies of religions outside the Mongol empire. So again, no atheism there.

Which brings us to the last 2, Zedong and Stalin. I put them together as both were proponents of Marxism-Leninism, and indeed there is an anti-religion facet within the Marxist-Leninist ideology. But to say both killed people in the name of atheism is not correct.

Their actions were guided not by the non-belief in a deity (which is what atheism is) but by the fact that institutionalized religion was an obstacle to the socialist revolution, which is true of any period in history, as religions - like Christianity in ancient Rome, then England, Spain, France, etc - have always aligned with emperors, kings, and tyrants, used as political tools to control and oppress the masses, as religious leaders watched the suffering of the population from the comfort and warmth of the palace, all while absolving the kings and tyrants of their sins.

So, killing in the name of a deity Yahweh still holds the title for more deaths, no contest.

 

[SystemShock]

For those historical events, I think you are overestimating death tolls. Something like the Spanish Inquisition resulted in a few thousand executions. That’s about the number of dead in a single minor Civil War battle.

The Spanish Inquisition is but one inquisition, and one event (which lasted 3-4 centuries). Executions of Europeans for heresy during the Spanish Inquisition may be counted in the 1000's, but the death toll for ancillary events like forced conversions of people indigenous to America within encomiendas, uprisings due to the destruction of temples to build churches, etc., those aren't including in the Spanish Inquisition tally.

And the records of inquisitions' death tolls are sketchy at best. For example, the records of the Goa Inquisition, a particularly brutal inquisition, were burnt.

As far as the Pope being responsible for the AIDS epidemic, seems kind of a reach to me.

Who said the Pope caused the AIDS epidemic?

 

[PurpleReign]

Who said the Pope caused the AIDS epidemic?

maybe you’re lost?

I asked how many people Christianity has killed and the only example from the last 200 years that you rolled with was something weird about the Pope and AIDS. You explain what your talking about- How many Africans did Christianity kill with AIDS? I mean “a whole lot” is a bit vague isn’t it?

 

[SystemShock]

maybe you’re lost?

I have tried my best to respond to your distortions and misdirection in as much a civil manner as I could, even if you have yet to address the argument I made in the OP. From your first post it was clear you were not here to present a case but just to obfuscate and misdirect.

I am going to give it one more shot.

I asked how many people Christianity has killed and the only example from the last 200 years that you rolled with was something weird about the Pope and AIDS.

First, there is nothing "weird" about a Pope going to an AIDS infested area of the world and telling people not to wear condoms; what it is, it is morally corrupt.

Asking "how many people has Christianity killed", well, Christianity has a 2000+ year history. I wasn't aware that I had to constrain my answer to the last 200 years. besides the Pope in Africa telling people not to wear condoms at the height of the AIDS epidemic, I could've brought up The Troubles, anti vaxxers, people refusing blood transfusions/medical treatment, Christians actively fighting against social medicine...

You explain what your talking about- How many Africans did Christianity kill with AIDS?
I don't think "Pope telling people not to wear condoms during the height of the AIDS epidemic" requires and explanation.

 

[PurpleReign]

I have tried my best to respond to your distortions and misdirection in as much a civil manner as I could, even if you have yet to address the argument I made in the OP. From your first post it was clear you were not here to present a case but just to obfuscate and misdirect.

I am going to give it one more shot.



First, there is nothing "weird" about a Pope going to an AIDS infested area of the world and telling people not to wear condoms; what it is, it is morally corrupt.

Asking "how many people has Christianity killed", well, Christianity has a 2000+ year history. I wasn't aware that I had to constrain my answer to the last 200 years. besides the Pope in Africa telling people not to wear condoms at the height of the AIDS epidemic, I could've brought up The Troubles, anti vaxxers, people refusing blood transfusions/medical treatment, Christians actively fighting against social medicine...

Yeah, I’ve read your posts and I get what you are trying to say. It’s just hogwash. You have a double standard when it comes to attributing deaths to religion versus antireligion. Meanwhile the whole thing is pointless because you can’t quantify the tallies anyway.

 

[SystemShock]

Yeah, I’ve read your posts and I get what you are trying to say.

Could've fooled me.

It’s just hogwash.

You'd think so.

You have a double standard when it comes to attributing deaths to religion versus antireligion.

So, again, I am referring to atheism, which is not "anti-religion". Frankly, I am not quite sure what you mean by anti-religion, but if you think atheism = "anti-religion", you are wrong.

Funny thing is, Stalin's USSR and Zedong's China, they weren't "anti-religion". Communism in both the USSR and China became religion. They may not have worshiped a metaphysical god like your average religion, but communism became religion in both places. You can look at North Korea for a contemporary example.

And really, you can't expect people not to retaliate when you sit next to kings and emperors and czars, while they oppress the masses with your blessing and you reap the spoils of said oppression.

Meanwhile the whole thing is pointless because you can’t quantify the tallies anyway.

Funny. You yourself presented an estimate for one of the events. I can put together an estimate of all of the events, but, yet again, since you still don't seem to get it, my point was to debunk the idea that atheism has caused more deaths than Christianity, which is a popular apologetics' "argument", just another one that tries to paint atheism as a religion based on faith; you know, bring you down to their level then beat you with experience...

But, if you have the tallies on deaths caused by atheism for atheism's sake, by all means...

 

[PurpleReign]

Could've fooled me.


You'd think so.


So, again, I am referring to atheism, which is not "anti-religion". Frankly, I am not quite sure what you mean by anti-religion, but if you think atheism = "anti-religion", you are wrong.

Funny thing is, Stalin's USSR and Zedong's China, they weren't "anti-religion". Communism in both the USSR and China became religion. They may not have worshiped a metaphysical god like your average religion, but communism became religion in both places. You can look at North Korea for a contemporary example.

And really, you can't expect people not to retaliate when you sit next to kings and emperors and czars, while they oppress the masses with your blessing and you reap the spoils of said oppression.


Funny. You yourself presented an estimate for one of the events. I can put together an estimate of all of the events, but, yet again, since you still don't seem to get it, my point was to debunk the idea that atheism has caused more deaths than Christianity, which is a popular apologetics' "argument", just another one that tries to paint atheism as a religion based on faith; you know, bring you down to their level then beat you with experience...

But, if you have the tallies on deaths caused by atheism for atheism's sake, by all means...

It’s pointless. You have a crazy double standard. If the Pope speaks out against wearing condoms, Christianity is responsible for AIDS deaths. If an atheist orders the murders of millions of people, atheism is not responsible for that at all. It’s laughable, but by all means keep going.

 

[SystemShock]

It’s pointless. You have a crazy double standard. If the Pope speaks out against wearing condoms, Christianity is responsible for AIDS deaths. If an atheist orders the murders of millions of people, atheism is not responsible for that at all. It’s laughable, but by all means keep going.

There is no double standard.

If the Pope, who is the head of the largest, most powerful church in history, goes to Africa at the height of the AIDS pandemic, when world organizations are trying to educate the masses and supplying as many condoms as people would take, and tells the faithful not to wear those condoms because wearing condoms goes against the church's doctrine, and the faithful don't wear it because of that faith, indeed, anyone who gets infected and dies because of it, that's on the church's.

On the other hand, Hitler, by his own words, was a Christian, but I don't blame Christianity for the actions of the Nazis.

Show me 1 atheist that has ordered the murders of millions of people for atheism's sake.

 

[PurpleReign]

There is no double standard.

If the Pope, who is the head of the largest, most powerful church in history, goes to Africa at the height of the AIDS pandemic, when world organizations are trying to educate the masses and supplying as many condoms as people would take, and tells the faithful not to wear those condoms because wearing condoms goes against the church's doctrine, and the faithful don't wear it because of that faith, indeed, anyone who gets infected and dies because of it, that's on the church's.

On the other hand, Hitler, by his own words, was a Christian, but I don't blame Christianity for the actions of the Nazis.

Show me 1 atheist that has ordered the murders of millions of people for atheism's sake.

You aren’t following what I’m saying. I don’t think Christians have ever killed anyone for Christianity’s sake. And I don’t think Atheists have ever killed anyone for Atheism’s sake. Have self-proclaimed Christians killed people? You bet. Have self-proclaimed Atheists killed people? You bet. It’s always about tyranny, paranoia, and basically just being psychopathic.

Where you and I differ is that you want to convey guilt by association in order to rebut people who make the same ridiculous argument of guilt by association. You know, the one that makes you want to “smack them across the face.’

 

[SystemShock]

You aren’t following what I’m saying. I don’t think Christians have ever killed anyone for Christianity’s sake.

You have got to be kidding me.

Enough.

 

[PurpleReign]

You have got to be kidding me.

Enough.

Fine. Keep living in your world where the Pope who goes to Africa to preach abstinence is responsible for AIDS deaths.

 

[SystemShock]

Fine. Keep living in your world where the Pope who goes to Africa to preach abstinence is responsible for AIDS deaths.

He didn't preach abstinence. He spoke against condom use.

But I'll go my way, and you can go on believing your fairy tale.

 

[PurpleReign]

He didn't preach abstinence. He spoke against condom use.

HAHAHA Wrong! He preached abstinence!

One of these methods is 100% effective against the transmission of HIV:

Abstinence
Condoms

Do your research, bud, before laying AIDS corpses at the feet of the Pope, the entire Catholic Church, and oh yeah, Christianity as a whole.

WAKE UP

 

[PurpleReign]

When you’re out there fornicating, be sure to use a rubber!!! - The Pope

lmao

 

[Christian]

And every time I hear this argument, I want to smack apologists across the face, because none of the aforementioned ever killed anyone in the name of atheism.

There is no moral code to abide by if you're an atheist. So any killing done by an atheist is done so partially because they don't have a God to answer to for their sins.

I would argue that makes any murder, rape, theft, etc. committed by an atheist was done in the name of atheism since it's their lack of a moral code that led them to believe that's it's okay to commit such atrocities.

That said, what has led to more killings? Probably religion. But these 'religious wars' that have taken place, if it wasn't about religion, it would have been about something else. Animals don't need to believe in a higher power to kill one another, do they? Humans would be no different under the evolution theory. If everyone unanimously believed in the big bang theory since the beginning of time, we would still be at each other's throats. South Park has a series of great episodes about this called "Go God Go" if you'd like to check that out.

And personally, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ. It is because of my beliefs in Him why I haven't given up on life, so you can add one life saved due to the religion to your record book if you'd like

 

[SystemShock]

There is no moral code to abide by if you're an atheist. So any killing done by an atheist is done so partially because they don't have a God to answer to for their sins.

I would argue that makes any murder, rape, theft, etc. committed by an atheist was done in the name of atheism since it's their lack of a moral code that led them to believe that's it's okay to commit such atrocities.

That said, what has led to more killings? Probably religion. But these 'religious wars' that have taken place, if it wasn't about religion, it would have been about something else. Animals don't need to believe in a higher power to kill one another, do they? Humans would be no different under the evolution theory. If everyone unanimously believed in the big bang theory since the beginning of time, we would still be at each other's throats. South Park has a series of great episodes about this called "Go God Go" if you'd like to check that out.

And personally, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ. It is because of my beliefs in Him why I haven't given up on life, so you can add one life saved due to the religion to your record book if you'd like

Hmmm... another 1st time poster on the site, whose first post is a Hovindesque claim on one of the side forums.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I don’t think Christians have ever killed anyone for Christianity’s sake.

I find it very difficult to take this statement seriously; perhaps I have misunderstood it? The history of Europe from the Reformation on is rife with religious wars: Catholics vs. Huguenots in France, the Thirty Years War, the English Civil War, the Scottish Reformation, the Schmalkaldic Wars to name a few. Just google the Wiki article on European Religious Wars. Go back earlier to the Crusades.

And why do you think the Catholic Church so ardently supported Hitler and celebrated his birthday every year with a special mass? Eugenio Pacelli, Pius XII, was rabidly anti-Jewish; he helped Hitler to power and trivialized the Holocaust despite knowing better. Here's a great article, one of many:

Long-Buried Vatican Files Reveal A New Indictment Of Pope Pius XII

Pope Pius XII helped Hitler destroy German Catholic political opposition. John Cornwell reports on this new discovery.

www.vanityfair.com

 

[Yggdrasill]

There is no moral code to abide by if you're an atheist. So any killing done by an atheist is done so partially because they don't have a God to answer to for their sins.

I would argue that makes any murder, rape, theft, etc. committed by an atheist was done in the name of atheism since it's their lack of a moral code that led them to believe that's it's okay to commit such atrocities.

That said, what has led to more killings? Probably religion. But these 'religious wars' that have taken place, if it wasn't about religion, it would have been about something else. Animals don't need to believe in a higher power to kill one another, do they? Humans would be no different under the evolution theory. If everyone unanimously believed in the big bang theory since the beginning of time, we would still be at each other's throats. South Park has a series of great episodes about this called "Go God Go" if you'd like to check that out.

And personally, I'm a believer in Jesus Christ. It is because of my beliefs in Him why I haven't given up on life, so you can add one life saved due to the religion to your record book if you'd like

There are just too many gaping holes in reasoning and assumption here to allow time for a comprehensive response. It's really just a steaming load of tripe.

I have a moral code and I am an anti-theist. So I have disproved your first point right there. Of course the non-religious have a moral code; as Christopher Hitchens said so eloquently, we would never have made it this far without an innate notion that murder, rape, theft etc. were not ok. There is almost universal consistency on these points among major religions, precisely because they are human-derived.

What atheists lack is a reference to an absolute, unchallengeable moral code laid down by an omniscient and omnipresent deity. But then, so do theists, since each of the multitudinous theist religions offers a unique such absolute moral code. Just minor, unresolvable contradiction don't you think.

By the way, who are you to say that I think it's ok to commit atrocities because I'm not religious? I mean, really, who the fork do you think you are? You're a Christian? You believe in the Bible? What would you think if I said that therefore you condone slavery, stoning disobedient children, and putting to death: those who work on the Sabbath (watch out 7-11 workers), adulterers, those who take the Lord's name in vain, a woman found not be be a virgin on her wedding night, and worshippers of other gods (to name a few).

Maybe you'd say, "Hold on, it's just slightly more nuanced than that." Gee, you think?

Some of the greatest moral philosophers have been atheists including: David Hume, John Stuart Mill, Sartre, Bertrand Russell, Santayana, John Rawls, Leviticus, Peter Lipton, and many others.

Of course animals don't need to believe in a higher power to kill. They kill for survival, for food. They don't kill for fun, out of rage or jealousy, from a desire to inflict pain and suffering, for greed or social gain, for political reasons, or because they just don't like that other guy. Who's the superior species? Speaking of which, humans are "under the evolution theory", as you put it, and have spent centuries trying to figure what is right, and what is moral behavior, and how to get along without all the cruelty and suffering. Religion was the first pass at that, but we moved on. We're not there yet, but we're making progress.

 

[Christian]

I have a moral code and I am an anti-theist. So I have disproved your first point right there.

The moral code you most likely abide by stems from the Ten Commandments, so religion has positively impacted your life

By the way, who are you to say that I think it's ok to commit atrocities because I'm not religious? I mean, really, who the fork do you think you are?

LOL where did I say that? I said IF an atheist commits those atrocities, obviously most atheists do not. IF they do though, a lack of a moral code is why they felt comfortable doing so, thus atheism can be partially blamed for their behavior.

The funny thing is though, atheists like yourself who are fine upstanding law abiding citizens, your morale code still comes from religion. That's why religion (especially Christianity) has done more good than bad!