A little guidance... (1 Viewer)

[N.O.Bronco]

As far as showing my work, I’ve always been an experience guy and find statistics and studies sometimes hard to fall in line with. There is a lot of things that can skew research but my experience is something that I know for fact for me. I also always find difficulties in telling someone else how they should feel or act or believe because we don’t know the person. I’ve only walked in one persons shoes and it’s my own so when I discuss issues I try to put myself in other peoples shoes but it’s only an opinion that I can have and not a fact that the person has experienced so thinking I’m going to go and dig up statistics that someone did that I have no idea was in a controlled experience is rare for me. I’m also not always going to change my thoughts on a subject if I have an experience that goes against the stats.

There is nothing wrong with anecdotes, but when they are used as an overriding replacement for traditional forms of empiricism it makes any sort of civic debate pretty difficult.

And if this board is meant to be the discussion/debate board, entirely anecdotal based arguments are rather problematic. Let me explain.

You have two competing anecdotes, one person says they think it is raining, the other person says it isn't. What now? Well, the only way to settle the matter is to step outside and see who is correct. I.E. incorporate empirical evidence to settle matters of dispute. Now if someone isn't interested in incorporating the empirical findings and hashing out the difference with good faith and an open mind, instead they just want to offer some personal commentary, well, isn't that what we have the ideological spaces for?

 

[Ayo]

Data doesn’t dictate someone’s core beliefs. Also when you talk about data in politics is not the same as data in my case analyzing a stores profits.

Data in politics is VERY subjective. A good example is the political compass test. You may look at the data of that survey; where I see a hugely loaded test that invalidates the results.

but that's not really 'data' per se - it's a survey. And if you want to fault the methodology, that's fine. But there's nothing really comprehensively drawn from that. Contrast that to, say, criminal statistics - only choosing that because it's what I am most familiar with - and you're talking a different type of 'data' with very different implications for people.

Further to that point, as Bronco pointed out above, anecdotal can be useful. Illustrative, even. And I'm partial to it, because most of my work and teaching has been qualitative more than quantitative (a bit of mixed methods sporadically mixed in).

Stories, case studies, anecdotes are often not intended to be considered in isolation. Rather, they are juxtaposed against some larger trend to isolate issues, humanize participants, consider 'soft' criteria, highlight particularly relevant examples, etc.

I definitely think personal ideas and anecdotes have a place, but they have to actually be pretty rigorously circumscribed and contextualized. And, of course, the distinction between 'fact' and 'opinion' has to be acknowledged as well. And if someone isn't going to be moved from an opinion in the face of direct, demonstrative, contrary evidence, then discussion is probably useless.

I would also add a point to the post you're replying to - having an opinion about someone else's life is one thing. But the post doesn't seem to acknowledge empathy. When it's asserted that "it’s my own so when I discuss issues I try to put myself in other peoples shoes but it’s only an opinion that I can have and not a fact that the person has experienced" it's not really complete because there are times and exercises that increase and enhance empathy and increase personal closeness. And I think that sort of work, moving toward empathy is critical. It is definitely possible, in many cases, to move beyond mere 'opinion' about someone else.

 

[Andrus]

The Moderators will be able to issue infractions on the common boards where warranted. Admins will then review. We do have checks and balances here concerning moderation.

Where the Affiliated boards are concerned, those boards are moderated by their peers. We don't expect too much in the way of problems within those boards, so moderators will be given much more latitude on their respective boards. However, on the common boards, in the interest of maintaining a sense of fair moderation to our membership, unless it is due to something particularly egregious that has to be addressed immediately, the Admins will discuss and decide common board bans.

There has been very little moderating on this MCB board other than a few deletions, etc. thus far. We are still in the testing phase. That will ramp up significantly leading up to the official launch. Prior to launching some of the threads and posts will be removed from this board. Perhaps some members too, depending on how they behave between now and said official launch.

Regarding that, as well as in response to some of the comments that I have seen...

Myself, and our select Admins will manage this site using our own common sense and better judgement. Consistency is important. Being fair and impartial is important. Backroom politics cannot interfere with fair moderation. We have a plan and we cannot stray from it.

Personally, I've lost friends and staffers due to their not being able to sway me from what in the end I considered to be right. That is how SR was built. That doesn't mean that I don't seek the advice of the people that I respect. I often do. I don't know everything and am not always right, so when I am uncertain about an issue I seek advice and also listen. I am sometimes slow to to react because I like to read what others have to say on an issue, then analyze and reach either the conclusion or solution that I think is best.

A jerk is a jerk! Nuance doesn't factor into that. Don't be one and you should be fine. Use your heads when posting on this board. We really have to wrap our heads around the fact that the rude, insulting, antagonistic, or badgering behavior that anyone may have gotten away with over on the PDB will be tolerated here on this MCB board. You can display your hyper-partisanship to your peers on the affiliated boards to your hearts desire, but here on the Main Community Board as well as the Debate Arena (once that cranks up) we will require civil discussion.

Everyone has a clean slate here, but that doesn't mean that there will be a lot of patience shown to either past or present problem members from any side of the political spectrum. Be aware that unlike the PDB where I was hands off, here I will be hands on. There are a couple of members that got away with a great deal of significantly less than desirable behavior on the PDB that I thought should have landed them on the banned list a long time ago, yet are still there. They won't last long here unless the can observe the rules.

My politics? Doesn't matter! It isn't far from center, and I am determined to put any political bias I may have aside in the interest of remaining fair and impartial, which I see as paramount to the success of this site. In-fact, the four admins that we will have here are all moderates. Two lean slightly left, two that lean slightly right. Two of the admins here never moderated and rarely ever participated on the PDB. I am one of the four admins and I find the other three to be quite intuitive, intelligent, and reasonable.

The bottom line here is that we cannot make this work without the help of our core PDB members, and I certainly do not take any of you for granted. At the same time while most of you are not of concern behaviorally speaking, there is a small element of that core that have not shown that they can play nice on a consistent basis. I am simply attempting to get a message across to them regarding future behavior.

We are fully aware that this is going to be a challenge... but we are up to it.

 

[wardorican]

Data doesn’t dictate someone’s core beliefs. Also when you talk about data in politics is not the same as data in my case analyzing a stores profits.

Data in politics is VERY subjective. A good example is the political compass test. You may look at the data of that survey; where I see a hugely loaded test that invalidates the results.

I agree that data is subjective.

However, I'm not just talking data/statistics. And I would think that data, information, sights, sounds, smells, what you've been told, what you've seen has informed you as to who you are and what you think.

Absent "data", information, teaching, guidance... what would you have ever learned?

My point is, on some subjects, many of us have been mislead, or were just ignorant to the details. Once you learn the proper details, it may or may not affect how you think about it.

If you're told your local mayor was a slime ball who felt up a friend's sister, and was embezzling form the school, you'd probably have a certain opinion of that person.

If someone told you that if you make more money you'd get taxed so much, it wouldn't be worth working the hours, would you correct them? Would knowing how that actually works change their opinions on that?

 

[Andrus]

To me, opinions are just that! Opinions! Either accept them or don't. However, when opinions are presented as fact, that is when you have reason to challenge.

 

[Lazybones]

I agree that data is subjective.

However, I'm not just talking data/statistics. And I would think that data, information, sights, sounds, smells, what you've been told, what you've seen has informed you as to who you are and what you think.

Absent "data", information, teaching, guidance... what would you have ever learned?

My point is, on some subjects, many of us have been mislead, or were just ignorant to the details. Once you learn the proper details, it may or may not affect how you think about it.

If you're told your local mayor was a slime ball who felt up a friend's sister, and was embezzling form the school, you'd probably have a certain opinion of that person.

If someone told you that if you make more money you'd get taxed so much, it wouldn't be worth working the hours, would you correct them? Would knowing how that actually works change their opinions on that?

I’m going to go to your last question about working hours as I have this conversation often. When a team member gets OT they may see an uptick in their tax responsibility. Some people think that the extra time they put in is not worth the extra amount of money they receive. Couple that with a larger nbr being deducted out of their check that goes to taxes.

To me it makes no sense, but I am not them. If their time is more important than the extra money, who am I to say they are wrong?

 

[GMRfellowtraveller]

As far as showing my work, I’ve always been an experience guy and find statistics and studies sometimes hard to fall in line with. There is a lot of things that can skew research but my experience is something that I know for fact for me. I also always find difficulties in telling someone else how they should feel or act or believe because we don’t know the person. I’ve only walked in one persons shoes and it’s my own so when I discuss issues I try to put myself in other peoples shoes but it’s only an opinion that I can have and not a fact that the person has experienced so thinking I’m going to go and dig up statistics that someone did that I have no idea was in a controlled experience is rare for me. I’m also not always going to change my thoughts on a subject if I have an experience that goes against the stats.

This is not intended as snark...
I assume you’ve never been a professional football player-
Do you use stats and past performance to try to make some predictions about how future games will go?
And do you share those guesses?

 

[V Chip]

I’m going to go to your last question about working hours as I have this conversation often. When a team member gets OT they may see an uptick in their tax responsibility. Some people think that the extra time they put in is not worth the extra amount of money they receive. Couple that with a larger nbr being deducted out of their check that goes to taxes.

To me it makes no sense, but I am not them. If their time is more important than the extra money, who am I to say they are wrong?

The thing is, the “uptick” in their taxes withheld is simply a function of whatever HR payroll software their employer is using. Most payroll systems withhold taxes on a check based on the gross amount as if that were the amount every pay period. So if your normal gross is $3000, but your OT/Bonus/extra amount is $4000, they withhold as if all of your checks are $4000. Unless they get that OT a lot, it’s a slight overpayment in taxes that will usually come back in a refund. But people misunderstand how taxes work and think they’ve magically hit some threshold where they “lose” money from working overtime. They don’t.

 

[V Chip]

I find it interesting that many of the same people who use their personal experience and anecdotal evidence to heavily affect their opinions/views don’t give much if any weight to other people’s experiences driving those people’s views. For instance, many discount the personal experiences of black people’s interaction with law enforcement, and tend to dismiss their experience as outliers or worse imagined.

I think most don’t rely on their experiences as much as they rely on their already-set opinions/views, and view their experiences through that lens. I mean, how many people who don’t trust Muslims have actually had personal negative experiences with them? The most that people have had are only news stories or huge events like 9-11.

 

[wardorican]

I think the key takeaway is that data, anecdotes, etc all can and do provide value towards dialogue and understanding.

It can also be used as a tool to be divisive.

Let's try to use it to further dialogue.

 

[Lazybones]

The thing is, the “uptick” in their taxes withheld is simply a function of whatever HR payroll software their employer is using. Most payroll systems withhold taxes on a check based on the gross amount as if that were the amount every pay period. So if your normal gross is $3000, but your OT/Bonus/extra amount is $4000, they withhold as if all of your checks are $4000. Unless they get that OT a lot, it’s a slight overpayment in taxes that will usually come back in a refund. But people misunderstand how taxes work and think they’ve magically hit some threshold where they “lose” money from working overtime. They don’t.

I get it. But that was why I made the point. Convincing someone who makes $12 per hour with data, does nothing for them. The time and perceived overpayment doesn’t justify the means.

This is just an example of just because data says one thing doesn’t mean that person needs to accept it as their way of life.

 

[Lazybones]

I think the key takeaway is that data, anecdotes, etc all can and do provide value towards dialogue and understanding.

It can also be used as a tool to be divisive.

Let's try to use it to further dialogue.

I will. But please do the same when one doesn’t want to go do a research paper to have a conversation. And then when you present “your” data, please understand that not everyone accepts it at face value and isn’t mandated to go along with it. So don’t let that stifle the conversation.

Fair?

 

[Lazybones]

I find it interesting that many of the same people who use their personal experience and anecdotal evidence to heavily affect their opinions/views don’t give much if any weight to other people’s experiences driving those people’s views. For instance, many discount the personal experiences of black people’s interaction with law enforcement, and tend to dismiss their experience as outliers or worse imagined.

I think most don’t rely on their experiences as much as they rely on their already-set opinions/views, and view their experiences through that lens. I mean, how many people who don’t trust Muslims have actually had personal negative experiences with them? The most that people have had are only news stories or huge events like 9-11.

I will give you the other flip is the coin. I don’t discount any black persons plight with the police or anything else. That doesn’t mean that I need to like how they protest it. It also doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t have an opinion because I’m not black.

In addition, don’t discount the positive experiences that people have had with the same police that you describe.

 

[V Chip]

I get it. But that was why I made the point. Convincing someone who makes $12 per hour with data, does nothing for them. The time and perceived overpayment doesn’t justify the means.

This is just an example of just because data says one thing doesn’t mean that person needs to accept it as their way of life.

Obviously you can lead a person to logic, but you cannot make them think.

But in these situations, I like to try and inform people that their conclusion is flawed because (IMO) they are being negatively affected by their misunderstanding of the way taxes and payroll work. There is never a time when someone makes less money by working paid overtime, and only extremely rarely that their effective pay rate goes down.

I get it if they don’t want to work the OT for other reasons, and obviously I can’t sway opinions based on other factors. But if it is just taxes they can be hurting themselves with the misunderstanding.

 

[MT15]

We can respect people’s right to have an opinion. But it’s not wrong to point out, in a respectful manner, when their opinion runs counter to facts.

In the example given, yes, a person can choose to avoid OT for any number of reasons. But if they think that they “make less money” when they work OT, that is most often objectively false.

Now they can still choose to not work OT, that’s their right and it’s just a choice, not a fact. We shouldn’t conflate facts with choices and opinions (or anecdotes to bring the discussion back a bit).

 

[V Chip]

I will give you the other flip is the coin. I don’t discount any black persons plight with the police or anything else. That doesn’t mean that I need to like how they protest it. It also doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t have an opinion because I’m not black.

In addition, don’t discount the positive experiences that people have had with the same police that you describe.

Oh we can all agree that people's means of protesting a perceived wrong can be criticized or disapproved, but I hope that wouldn't overshadow the reason people are protesting. Basically treat those events like the mods want us to treat members on the board -- don't just react to the negative and try to consider viewpoints and discuss the issues. We can obviously also disagree on those, but IMO a little empathy for each other's views can lead a long way.