All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (20 Viewers)

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    Maxp

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    I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?
     
    Heathen said:
    Yep.

    Many, many more will die in this country as a result of this brazenly careless and juvenile attitude. It's that simple.
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    I generally try to stay even keeled, but this does really anger me. This is not a surprise. The message from public health care professionals and epidemiologists has been consistent on this since early February.

    "This disease is bad. It's worse than the flu. The death rate will be between 0.5 and 2%. The hospitalization rate will be between 5 and 10%. It's very contagious. To prevent over a million deaths in this country, you need to lock things down until the number of new cases is really low (where R0 is 1 or less). The earlier you lock down, the less severe the lockdown has to be and the shorter, if you wait too long you have to lock down harder or longer or both. After that you can safely open up if you have tons of testing available and then do contact tracing"

    That has been the message from day 1. If that isn't what you were hearing, then you probably need to actually read the scientific papers on this subject b/c your news of choice sucks.

    So, if this is taking too long for your liking, direct your ire at whoever it is you think is responsible for not setting up the infrastructure to do mass testing in your area. If your local area isn't at a R0 of 1 or less, be mad at the people who are not practicing social distancing or good hygenic practices - they are the ones that are delaying your return to normalcy.
     
    Archies Ghost said:
    You aren’t at risk from what other people do if you isolate yourself.
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    Exactly.

    But if you go to your job you are now counting that everyone that works there and visits that business takes this just as serious as you do.

    That is not the case at all because plenty of people are ungodly selfish and lack a shred of empathy
     
    not2rich said:
    I know, right? The mitigation efforts didn't buy us time to put an effective plan in place. Instead, it gave us another divisive culture war.
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    It just seems really, really weird to me. It seems to me that this is the result of a decades long effort to sow distrust in the government, media and scientific community.

    Although for the record, I turned on CNN for the first time in years and I get why people hate it, it's pretty awful from a journalistic standpoint.
     
    The moose said:
    Ok let's get something straight. You are giving that info for free to multiple people anyway and they sell it for profit not about saving a life. So what is the big deal?

    You think visa or your bank don't know what you do where you go and sell it? They sure know about the waffle house stops, the stop at the Walmart, and anywhere else you buy.

    Do you think your phone provider doesn't know what you are doing and sell it?
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    This is true, we've already farmed ourselves out to companies that are tracking us. It's also surprising what I can get publicly already. You know those private companies that run those toll roads - they sell their traffic data to people. And that includes license plates.


    The moose said:
    I would also look into just how many tests are being given in your area.

    I for one think that the numbers in Florida can't be right just based on age of state and the amount of travelers you get. When a pork plant with fifteen hundred employees in middle nowhere Iowa has as many positive tested as your county of what about a million people. The math don't work.
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    Florida numbers might be real. It's warmer and has more sunlight, so disease spread is likely to be slower.
     
    UncleTrvlingJim said:
    This is true, we've already farmed ourselves out to companies that are tracking us. It's also surprising what I can get publicly already. You know those private companies that run those toll roads - they sell their traffic data to people. And that includes license plates.




    Florida numbers might be real. It's warmer and has more sunlight, so disease spread is likely to be slower.
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    I would definitely take Florida's numbers with a grain of salt.

    Well the first thing is the first Florida case was reported over a week before Louisiana. They allowed spring break and all other stuff to go on.

    The beaches remained open three weeks after the first reported case. Disney closed down over two weeks after the first case.

    The numbers don't add up.

    Heck it is hot here and we had plenty of virus problems.

    If you are not testing you have no data. So actually all states where humans beg to get tested don't have solid data.
     
    Intensesaint said:
    My county is the most densely populated county in the state(Pinellas) as well and we are doing very well with our numbers, you can be sacred and hide in your home. I am done with the fear mongering and misinformation that is going on.

    Also, more and more doctors and nurses are popping up around the country, telling their stories about how this is being overblown by the media and how they are being pressured to label deaths as caused by COVID-19.

    You have really lost it if you are ok with letting a business log your name or any information(at the behest of the government), just for going in their store.
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    That's technically true about Pinellas, but that also discounts that about over half of Broward county isn't populated at all, and a lot of Miami Dade isn't populated at all. However, I will say that a lot of Florida has been doing pretty well, all things considered. I've been saying as much on the EE. However, let's be honest about Pinellas and Hillsborough. You don't exactly have the major port of entry concerns that Miami, Fort Lauderdale, and even Orlando have.

    There was an analysis done ( I didn't read it all) about this.

    https://www.bebr.ufl.edu/population/website-article/measuring-population-density-counties-florida

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    Mostly settled after the stay at home order started.

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    One thing to be careful of is that Hillsborough seems to be ticking up just a bit. But this data is delayed...

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    The real saving grace with Florida is that we have a good number of hospitals.

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    It also helps that y'all had more ICU beds than hospitalizations and the poverty percentage is only 11.7%. Broward is close, just a bit more. Miami Dade is around 16-17% at the federal poverty percentage. I think we'll see more poor effected.
     
    UncleTrvlingJim said:
    This is true, we've already farmed ourselves out to companies that are tracking us. It's also surprising what I can get publicly already. You know those private companies that run those toll roads - they sell their traffic data to people. And that includes license plates.




    Florida numbers might be real. It's warmer and has more sunlight, so disease spread is likely to be slower.
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    Also, travel was mostly shut down. Either by asking folks to quarantine, or by people just not willing to fly. Disney and Universal have been shut down for months. Beaches are closed. Bars and clubs are closed. Why would you go to Miami now?

    @Moose you don't know what you're talking about. Florida, I believe has the third most testing in the Nation (or close). South Florida was already closed down. Seems like younger adults either aren't suffering the same major symptoms (maybe couldn't be tested), or because they were mostly outside on the beach, didn't transmit it. I'd worry more about the clubs and bars. And many were shut down.

    1588776279960.png


    1588776443104.png
     
    wardorican said:
    Also, travel was mostly shut down. Either by asking folks to quarantine, or by people just not willing to fly. Disney and Universal have been shut down for months. Beaches are closed. Bars and clubs are closed. Why would you go to Miami now?

    @Moose you don't know what you're talking about. Florida, I believe has the third most testing in the Nation (or close). South Florida was already closed down. Seems like younger adults either aren't suffering the same major symptoms (maybe couldn't be tested), or because they were mostly outside on the beach, didn't transmit it. I'd worry more about the clubs and bars. And many were shut down.

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    I love it man they test 17k out of just under a million and life is all good? That is what a half day in South Korea?

    Without real testing we know nothing.

    By all means go to the waffle house get a hair cut get your nails done life is golden!

    Oh and Disney closed March the 16th so not months by any stretch I would call it weeks.
     
    UncleTrvlingJim said:
    We really are just screwed. I'm just at a loss here -- instead of being mad at not having a plan and infrastructure in place to safely reopen 3 months after we knew that this was going to be bad -- yes, let's be mad at the numbers that don't tell us what we want to hear, let's be mad at trying to delay the spread of the disease while we get that plan and infrastructure at place. It's pure selfishness. "I don't think I'm going to die, so let the weak and vulnerable fend for themselves, as long as I get mine."
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    What, specifically, are you mad at? Opening beaches? Restaurants opening with social distancing and at reduced capacities in places? Is it merely the political commentary you are hearing?

    I think much of the country had a pretty hard shutdown for a month and a half or more. And I think very few places are operating "normally" currently. So I am nost sure what the problem is on that end.

    As far as infrastructure and plans. I feel fairly confident in what my state has done. We have a test rate that exceeds many places haild as success stories - like Germany. The tests are free and available to anyone. We have empty hospitals - so much so that thousands of hospital workers have been laid off.
    I am not asking this rhetorically at all - what places have done a poor job of getting ready for a partial re-opening?
     
    The moose said:
    I love it man they test 17k out of just under a million and life is all good? That is what a half day in South Korea?

    Without real testing we know nothing.

    By all means go to the waffle house get a hair cut get your nails done life is golden!

    Oh and Disney closed March the 16th so not months by any stretch I would call it weeks.
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    Ok. Almost two months.

    And do you think I am suggesting all that nonsense you just said? I'm data driven. Always have been.
     
    JimEverett said:
    What, specifically, are you mad at? Opening beaches? Restaurants opening with social distancing and at reduced capacities in places? Is it merely the political commentary you are hearing?

    I think much of the country had a pretty hard shutdown for a month and a half or more. And I think very few places are operating "normally" currently. So I am nost sure what the problem is on that end.

    As far as infrastructure and plans. I feel fairly confident in what my state has done. We have a test rate that exceeds many places haild as success stories - like Germany. The tests are free and available to anyone. We have empty hospitals - so much so that thousands of hospital workers have been laid off.
    I am not asking this rhetorically at all - what places have done a poor job of getting ready for a partial re-opening?
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    I'm mad at the false framing and rhetoric I'm hearing. The general sense I'm getting is that this virus is either no big deal, or this all a huge over-reaction, etc, and that everyone should open up now. Or we just need to live with the virus now - with no framing of what that means, leaving us to guess that they believe that nationwide there's enough testing and contact tracing to adequately do that, or they don't care if there is enough testing and contact tracing. The estimates for the amount of testing needed to safely reopen nationwide is from 500,000 to 35 million test per day. We're between 200,000 and 300,000 tests per day.

    The White House released pretty good plans for a phased approach to re-opening, and yet I'm hearing a demand to open up states before they hit the guidelines that the White House released, with no logic as to why, or what guidelines they recommend.

    I'm more than happy to let local governments open up in a way that makes sense to them. I don't think you've heard me once say that any particular location needs to stay locked down. I do have a strong sense of cynicism about people who are demanding that other states that they don't live in open up based on their own perceptions.
     
    UncleTrvlingJim said:
    I'm mad at the false framing and rhetoric I'm hearing.
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    That's ironic considering you used quotation marks to pretend that someone took the position that they would, "let the weak and vulnerable fend for themselves." I don't know, but it seems to me that if you can't find an actual quote saying that then there is little utility in expressing outrage over the statement.
     
    There was an image used for the Lansing protests. Here is more of a story behind it. It may or may not be true, but I appreciate the Detroit Free Press (via the Yahoo link) digging into it more.

    www.yahoo.com

    Michigan man in now-famous Capitol protest photo: 'I didn't scream in anybody's face'

    As photographs of protesters in Michigan's Capitol building made their rounds nationally, one has emerged as a defining image.
    www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

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    Cash said he wasn't yelling at the state troopers seen in the photo – "I didn't scream in anybody's face" – but at an officer positioned behind them who he said he saw assault a woman the day before. Three women were removed from the public gallery for the state House of Representatives on April 29. The incident was caught on video, showing a woman being forcibly removed. The incident prompted an announcement by the Michigan State Police that it was investigating the confrontation between individuals and House police.

    The next day, when the now-infamous photo of him was taken, Cash said he was in the Capitol when he saw the officer.

    "I was there chanting, 'Let us in,' and I saw that guy and I just, I just kind of lost it a little bit," Cash said. He said that he was asking the man, whom he called a "red coat," a reference to the red coats they wear, "if he wanted to try to throw me around like he did that girl yesterday."

    .........

    Cash, who said he was not armed at the protest, said he was yelling between the two Michigan State Police troopers in the photo, not at them. But the photo was criticized online. "These are the same people who tell you to 'respect the police,' " one Twitter user posted. Another wrote: "Would officers show this much restraint if black men were yelling in their faces?"

    Cash, who described himself as a longtime marijuana activist having worked on efforts to legalize it in Michigan, was upset with accusations that protesters were racist and blamed the media, which he said "twists everything."

    He said his experience that day was "awesome" and said "anybody of any color should have the right to do what I did."
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    I think this is why, a first hand account type media, and media that is willing to peel back the outer layer to get into the story is important. People on social media think they know the whole story, and post these quick reactions to a picture. There is more to it. And of course, this one protester doesn't speak for the others. Just himself.
     

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