Law Enforcement Reform Thread (formerly Defund the Police) (3 Viewers)

First Time Poster · Jun 11, 2020

So I got busy the other day with the intention to revisit this topic and answer some of the responses put forward but I realized the thread was deleted. But, I felt we had good dialogue happening before I left so I wanted to restart the topic to get the conversation going again. We started some dialogue about it on the liberal board but I feel this topic transcends party lines so I'm making a MCB thread. Post #2, or my next post, is the post I made on the liberal board when asked to elaborate how I felt.

wardorican · Jun 15, 2020

SaintForLife said:
If you read the thread you will see that multiple people addressed your orginal question already.

About fairness? Doubtful.

Anyway, I was talking to Farb.

wardorican · Jun 15, 2020

Lapaz said:
I support BLM, but the media and almost everyone distorts reality. The facts collected by the government don't align with the stories hyped. The reality is that police only kill a very tiny fraction of the people they encounter. In 2018, about 1000 people were killed out of 7.7 million encounters, and about twice as many of those were white than black, although blacks committed more murders. I suspect most of those people acted violently towards the police, so a very tiny percentage were not justified. Police rarely fire their weapons. There are killings without guns, but that is even rarer. The unjustified killing of people like George Floyd are a very tiny fraction of encounters.

People shot to death by U.S. police, by race 2024 | Statista
The trend of fatal police shootings in the U.S. seems to only be increasing each year, with Black civilians having the highest rates of being killed by police.
www.statista.com

The reality is that all races encounter the police about equally per capita.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp15.pdf

The stats don't bear out that blacks are more maligned than whites. Are highlighting black killings going to be a useful tool to spark reform? It appears to be the case, and that's good, but I don't think it should be turned into a tool to malign white people. I agree with using mental health care workers much more, better training to de-escalate, and better accountability, because it might save some of those 1000 people. Nevertheless, I don't think that number is going to get drastically better, because the number isn't as large as the media portrays. Also, I prefer to see more funding for those reforms without taking money from police forces, which will be needed until those other things prove to reduce the demand for the police. In a society like ours that is armed to the hilt, the police will encounter shootouts, and we need them. There are studies that show that every 10 policemen hired saves 1 life, whereas fewer police results in more murders. Perhaps 10 trained mental health professionals will yield a better return on investment, but let's reduce the demand on police, before reducing their numbers. Unfortunately, no matter what we do, police will mistakenly shoot people that appear to be armed, but that is unavoidable in our armed society without putting the police at much greater danger.

I think the real problem with police is that they often abuse their power and hurt people unnecessarily, but I think the likelihood of being killed by the police, if you cooperate, is very remote. Again, I believe in reform, and I applaud most of the reforms discussed here, but I particularly want to see reforms for abuses of all sorts. We don't need to distort reality to achieve it.

The killings aren't the problem. They're the bull horn. It's the abuse, the rough housing, the excessive force. My letter to the local police was about "use of force". I want it all public.

And I'll say this. Yes, police killings are rare, and in many cases the suspects are armed or fighting. However, on statistics, don't fall for the trap of looking at raw numbers, you have to normalize them. Black people make up about 13-14% of the population of the USA. White people, ignoring Hispanic and mixed, are 60-61% of the population.

Using the 2017 numbers, since they show the most killings, and least "unknown's", there were 1077 total killings. 21% of those killings were of black people,almost 8% were unknown, and 42% were white. So, for blacks, while it is still a smallish number, you're still talking about a factor of 1.5-1.6 disproportionately towards being killed. The odds are low, but it's still a bigger chance of being killed if your black.

That being said, it's not about murders, it's about use of force. It's about being perceived as a threat. it's about being harassed. The Deaths are the bullhorn, not the extent of the problem. That's what gets our attention.

wardorican · Jun 15, 2020

So, I shared this on SR, but I'll post this here. I didn't join any protests (mostly out of fear of police violence, indiscriminate, likely, and coronavirus). I did pay attention and I did share my thoughts on social media a bit. But, like I told my step son, that doesn't amount to much. Time to work the political process, so, I wrote a letter. So far, I only sent it to my town mayor, councilman, and police chief, and the same for the neighboring town. I was going to send it to Ft Lauderdale and BSO, but I just haven't gotten back to it. I got a "thanks for the letter" from the neighboring city. I did get some feedback from my city.

I'm only sharing the meat of my letter, but this outlines some things that I think should happen. Not just for BLM, but for all of us. I wish I added more about mental health and having trained people be 'crisis intervention specialists' or something.

I ask for the following items to be developed, instituted, and/or shared with the public, I’ve also attached a reference from Campaign Zero that covers these and similar items in more detail:

A clear use of Force Continuum that has a focus on the respect for the person and preservation of life, and that use of force is Restrictive.
Minimal reliance on force, reasonable, proportional, and necessary force.
De-escalation techniques must be a major focus, prior to and after using force.
Choke-holds and similar restraints are prohibited, except when deadly force is authorized.
A review of Taser usage, and when it may offer stronger suspect and officer safety.
NOTE: Departments with the highest number of Use of Force Restrictions also have a lower risk of officers being killed in the line of duty.
All officers have a duty to provide medical assistance.
Duty to render aid directly, and if necessary, call for medical assistance.
A duty of all officers to Intervene and Report when they reasonably believe an officer is about to use unnecessary or excessive force.
Must be reported to supervisor. Failure to report can results in disciplinary action.
A duty of Departments to prevent through early Intervention
Intervention systems to track the usage of excessive force, to prevent future use of deadly force by that individual.
Public Release of all Use of Force by a department (Low, Intermediate, Deadly), in a timely manner, with a minimum of reporting Deadly Force use.
Within 72 hours of the use of Force.
Prefer reporting of Intermediate and Deadly Force usage
Ending the usage and/or reliance of Military style/grade hardware for Law Enforcement.
It encourages escalation of crowd violence (my opinion)
It encourages officers to use more aggressive force than necessary (my opinion)
I think the past few days have shown us that Rubber Bullets and other aggressive crowd control methods need to be seriously re-evaluated. Many people getting severely injured, often who are just bystanders, homeless, or reporters. Multiple people have lost their eyes, or had severe trauma injuries.
Lastly, Effective Community Oversight
Remove barriers to reporting and acting on Police Misconduct
I can likely list a lot more items, but I think these 8 topics are more than sufficient to bring about real and effective change. This ‘us’ vs ‘them’ mentality needs to go away. The notion that a LEO’s life is more important than anyone else’s needs to get removed from the culture. While our Black brothers and sisters are disproportionately affected by these policies, the entire community is affected and at risk. Watch the aftermath of these protests, and the indiscriminate violence being perpetrated in the name of clearing the crowd. Look at the media members, clearly marked, being attacked or arrested. We demand fair treatment, and professional, courteous officers who are under control of themselves, even when the situation is out of control. Again, we expect more.

Thank you for your time and consideration. I expect to hear something on this in the near future, either directly, or to the greater community.

I truly do wish you well. Let’s all be better, together.

So far, I was referred to the Township clerk to basically get a FOIA request. Still working on that.

What specific reforms would we all like to see?

Tony1Sainstfan · Jun 16, 2020

wardorican said:
Not much different than various political camps that believe in revolution or "blow the system up" and start over. Hear it from the right, hear it from the left. Everyone wants "the other" option. Whatever it is.

I can tell you I’m a conservative and I have never wanted to blow up the system. Is what we have now perfect no. That doesn’t mean we abolish the police department. I posted that link to the opinion article in the New York times where the writer says that’s exactly what they want and bases his reaso that reform won’t work. If you took part in the previous thread I started and later deleted you would see that almost everyone who leans to the left of center told me I was wrong and didn’t understand what defund the police meant. I’m pretty sure those that read the article I posted who were telling me how I didn’t understand will never come on here and say they were wrong but that’s ok with me. There’s nothing I post about that I don’t understand. But much like the old PDB there are people who think they know everything because they drink whatever CNN tells them the flavor of the day is. Just like a thread I replied to several times where I was saying how we will never get off fossil fuel and that solar and wind will never be reliable sources of energy. I got jumped on by people that I won’t name looking for every letter in everything I said trying to shoot me down. Well I have 30+ years working in the electric utilities industry and still consult with many electric utilities around the nation or at least I did before COVID 19. I’m pretty sure those same people would argue with a brain surgeon before a surgery.

wardorican · Jun 16, 2020

Tony1Sainstfan said:
I can tell you I’m a conservative and I have never wanted to blow up the system. Is what we have now perfect no. That doesn’t mean we abolish the police department. I posted that link to the opinion article in the New York times where the writer says that’s exactly what they want and bases his reaso that reform won’t work. If you took part in the previous thread I started and later deleted you would see that almost everyone who leans to the left of center told me I was wrong and didn’t understand what defund the police meant. I’m pretty sure those that read the article I posted who were telling me how I didn’t understand will never come on here and say they were wrong but that’s ok with me. There’s nothing I post about that I don’t understand. But much like the old PDB there are people who think they know everything because they drink whatever CNN tells them the flavor of the day is. Just like a thread I replied to several times where I was saying how we will never get off fossil fuel and that solar and wind will never be reliable sources of energy. I got jumped on by people that I won’t name looking for every letter in everything I said trying to shoot me down. Well I have 30+ years working in the electric utilities industry and still consult with many electric utilities around the nation or at least I did before COVID 19. I’m pretty sure those same people would argue with a brain surgeon before a surgery.

I dont watch CNN. I dont have cable.

I'd rather you engage with me vs bringing up what you think the group thinks.

Some people have given up believing in the system. That isn't a right or left thing. I see it by both. Those people are going to present more extreme views. We don't have to agree with them.

Lapaz · Jun 16, 2020

wardorican said:
The killings aren't the problem. They're the bull horn. It's the abuse, the rough housing, the excessive force. My letter to the local police was about "use of force". I want it all public.

And I'll say this. Yes, police killings are rare, and in many cases the suspects are armed or fighting. However, on statistics, don't fall for the trap of looking at raw numbers, you have to normalize them. Black people make up about 13-14% of the population of the USA. White people, ignoring Hispanic and mixed, are 60-61% of the population.

Using the 2017 numbers, since they show the most killings, and least "unknown's", there were 1077 total killings. 21% of those killings were of black people,almost 8% were unknown, and 42% were white. So, for blacks, while it is still a smallish number, you're still talking about a factor of 1.5-1.6 disproportionately towards being killed. The odds are low, but it's still a bigger chance of being killed if your black.

That being said, it's not about murders, it's about use of force. It's about being perceived as a threat. it's about being harassed. The Deaths are the bullhorn, not the extent of the problem. That's what gets our attention.

First of all, I agree with you that the problem is police abuse, and I said that should be the focus of accountability. The problem is that few people are saying that. Almost everyone is talking about how blacks are killed at an alarming rate compared to whites, but the stats don't support that. That doesn't change the need for reform, but I think it should change the way we discuss the problem.

Regarding normalizing the stats, my analysis was normalized, and I'll restate it. In the first link regarding the police killings, I assumed that the most violent encounters will undoubtedly be with murderers, so I assumed that at least 80% of the killings occurred during arrests of murderers, since murderers have little to lose. In 2018, blacks committed just over 5000 murders to whites committing just over 4000, yet the police killed twice as many whites. It doesn't matter if whites represent 99% of the population or 1% of the population, because I just used the population of murderers. That is normalized to encounters with murderers, not to the percent a race represents in a population. Is it possible that whites committed many murders that didn't involve the police? I suppose, but that is very unlikely. If the stats are true, then stats actually suggest violent whites are twice as likely to be killed by police than violent blacks.

The second link was normalized for you. It showed that almost 10% of blacks encounter the police in a given year, while almost 9% of whites. This is probably due to more police per capita in black neighborhoods which also have a higher per capita crime rate. Is this 1% more encounter by blacks a big problem that needs to be remedied by less encounters with blacks? I think that would lead to allowing more crimes to be committed without encounters, and I doubt that would be good for the black community as a whole. I doubt merchants and law abiding people in those neighborhoods would be happy with that. Maybe it is bias, but if the area has a higher crime rate, the bias may be to underserve those areas, rather than over serve those areas. The stats also showed that whites get stopped as a percent of the population on traffic stops more frequently than blacks, yet we always hear about driving while black is way worse. These come from government statistics. People can claim the government is lying, but remember that the government is as diverse as any organization in the country, so I would think that would be exposed.

V Chip · Jun 16, 2020

Lapaz said:
Almost everyone is talking about how blacks are killed at an alarming rate compared to whites, but the stats don't support that.

Thats not true. They do support that notion — blacks are killed at almost 3 times the rate of whites per capita.

Lapaz said:
These come from government statistics.

No, they didn’t. They came from a government website, true, but the link you gave says clearly “Findings described in this report are based on data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ 2015 Police-Public Contact Survey (PPCS), a supplement to the National Crime Victimization
Survey (NCVS). The NCVS collects information from a nationally representative sample of persons age 12 or older in U.S. households. The PPCS was designed to collect information from those 16 or older on contact with police during the 12 months prior to the interview.”

Statistics and surveys are two very different things. A survey can be statistically significant, but it’s not flawless and can contain bias or flawed methodology. The NCVS has had its methodology criticized in the past, even after changes were made to it. One thing I’ve personally tried to discover is if the household survey includes those incarcerated, but there is no indication if it does or does not.

Lapaz · Jun 16, 2020

V Chip said:
Thats not true. They do support that notion — blacks are killed at almost 3 times the rate of whites per capita.

No, they didn’t. They came from a government website, true, but the link you gave says clearly “Findings described in this report are based on data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ 2015 Police-Public Contact Survey (PPCS), a supplement to the National Crime Victimization
Survey (NCVS). The NCVS collects information from a nationally representative sample of persons age 12 or older in U.S. households. The PPCS was designed to collect information from those 16 or older on contact with police during the 12 months prior to the interview.”

Statistics and surveys are two very different things. A survey can be statistically significant, but it’s not flawless and can contain bias or flawed methodology. The NCVS has had its methodology criticized in the past, even after changes were made to it. One thing I’ve personally tried to discover is if the household survey includes those incarcerated, but there is no indication if it does or does not.

I know some bring up police brutality, but there are far fewer of those people. Most incorrectly assert that blacks are killed disproportionately. That can only be true if you look at the population as a whole, but police encounters aren't proportional to the percentage of the population of each race. Per crime and/or police encounter/arrest, blacks are killed less frequently than whites. One can claim over-policing of blacks, but when police are encountered, whites are more in danger of being killed. Perhaps blacks are more in danger of being abused. I don't know, and it is much harder to find evidence on that, but I can easily believe that, which is why I assert that that is the real problem. BLM almost exclusively talks about killings, but I think the cause should be Police Abuse Matters, because if it was about police killings, then it would be more about white lives matter, since they get killed more frequently/encounter. Obviously chanting white lives matter is absurd, but all lives matter, and blacks are not being killed disproportionately per encounter with the police, so we should be advocating for changes and accountability for police brutality and unnecessary force.

I will do some research on the statistics and possible bias of the NCVS. I'm sorry if I was too hasty in posting their information, and if I find it to be a bad site, I will retract it and re-assess my analysis of the probability of police encounters being misrepresented. On the other hand, the first link that I provided in my earlier thread was from the FBI.

wardorican · Jun 16, 2020

Lapaz said:
First of all, I agree with you that the problem is police abuse, and I said that should be the focus of accountability. The problem is that few people are saying that. Almost everyone is talking about how blacks are killed at an alarming rate compared to whites, but the stats don't support that. That doesn't change the need for reform, but I think it should change the way we discuss the problem.

Regarding normalizing the stats, my analysis was normalized, and I'll restate it. In the first link regarding the police killings, I assumed that the most violent encounters will undoubtedly be with murderers, so I assumed that at least 80% of the killings occurred during arrests of murderers, since murderers have little to lose. In 2018, blacks committed just over 5000 murders to whites committing just over 4000, yet the police killed twice as many whites. It doesn't matter if whites represent 99% of the population or 1% of the population, because I just used the population of murderers. That is normalized to encounters with murderers, not to the percent a race represents in a population. Is it possible that whites committed many murders that didn't involve the police? I suppose, but that is very unlikely. If the stats are true, then stats actually suggest violent whites are twice as likely to be killed by police than violent blacks.

The second link was normalized for you. It showed that almost 10% of blacks encounter the police in a given year, while almost 9% of whites. This is probably due to more police per capita in black neighborhoods which also have a higher per capita crime rate. Is this 1% more encounter by blacks a big problem that needs to be remedied by less encounters with blacks? I think that would lead to allowing more crimes to be committed without encounters, and I doubt that would be good for the black community as a whole. I doubt merchants and law abiding people in those neighborhoods would be happy with that. Maybe it is bias, but if the area has a higher crime rate, the bias may be to underserve those areas, rather than over serve those areas. The stats also showed that whites get stopped as a percent of the population on traffic stops more frequently than blacks, yet we always hear about driving while black is way worse. These come from government statistics. People can claim the government is lying, but remember that the government is as diverse as any organization in the country, so I would think that would be exposed.

Again, based on the numbers of murders, which I agree is pretty low, blacks still are outpacing their population. I know you don't think population is useful, but I do. We will just have to disagree there. That's ok.

I'm not sure your assumption that 80% of killings are during arrests of murders is a good one to make. I guess I'd like to see how that data is parsed out.. what was the stop for, why were they shot.

One issue at hand is that so many of the well documented cases of police shootings are for people who were shopping in a store, walking down the stairs, sleeping in their bed at home, sitting in their own home, a kid playing in the park, selling loose cigarettes, or accused of writing a fake check or using a fake $20 bill.

At best, a few have been petty crimes, and worst, they was NO REASON AT ALL to kill them.

The ones I feel bad for, that I also understand why the cops shot, were the people messing around with BB guns or pellet guns that look real. Those are more unfortunate circumstances.

So, I do think we need to make sure we're not speaking with too much hyperbole, I agree there. I don't think cops are out hunting blacks or something like that. Not as a group. I do think their murder rate is a bit high, but that's not even the real issue. It's the harassment, the physical contact. Now, the fear is that every single traffic stop, or a random stop on the street can lead to your death. It may be a bit irrational, since the odds are so low, but is it irrational to think you'll be arrested for no reason, or beaten up a bit?

From the DOJ paper you posted..

This adds similar commentary.

Police stops are still marred by racial discrimination, new data shows.

So why does Trump continue to endorse stop-and-frisk?

www.prisonpolicy.org

Then look at the number of traffic stops and street stops. Those are totally disproportionate. 26% of all street stops are black. Again, only 13% of the population. And, 17% of those 763200 had multiple contacts.

Would our reactions change if we found out that the use of force on Females suddenly tripled and was more than men? How would our society act? I'd think pretty swift.

People have always used hyperbole to fuel their points. This is no different. But I also don't think it's a mirage either.

wardorican · Jun 16, 2020

Lapaz said:
I know some bring up police brutality, but there are far fewer of those people. Most incorrectly assert that blacks are killed disproportionately. That can only be true if you look at the population as a whole, but police encounters aren't proportional to the percentage of the population of each race. Per crime and/or police encounter/arrest, blacks are killed less frequently than whites. One can claim over-policing of blacks, but when police are encountered, whites are more in danger of being killed. Perhaps blacks are more in danger of being abused. I don't know, and it is much harder to find evidence on that, but I can easily believe that, which is why I assert that that is the real problem. BLM almost exclusively talks about killings, but I think the cause should be Police Abuse Matters, because if it was about police killings, then it would be more about white lives matter, since they get killed more frequently/encounter. Obviously chanting white lives matter is absurd, but all lives matter, and blacks are not being killed disproportionately per encounter with the police, so we should be advocating for changes and accountability for police brutality and unnecessary force.

I will do some research on the statistics and possible bias of the NCVS. I'm sorry if I was too hasty in posting their information, and if I find it to be a bad site, I will retract it and re-assess my analysis of the probability of police encounters being misrepresented. On the other hand, the first link that I provided in my earlier thread was from the FBI.

I think it's because abuse doesn't rise above the numbness anymore. Killings still do.

Otherwise, I think we have a lot of common ground here. Just a few areas we're going to see it differently.

I think the fundemental question you basically pointed out is this.. why are blacks over policed? Why are they seen as a threat? Why are we so quick to blame them? Why are there so many interactions?

insidejob · Jun 16, 2020

Does this clear things up for those who don't seem to get it?

Lapaz · Jun 16, 2020

wardorican said:
Again, based on the numbers of murders, which I agree is pretty low, blacks still are outpacing their population. I know you don't think population is useful, but I do. We will just have to disagree there. That's ok.

I'm not sure your assumption that 80% of killings are during arrests of murders is a good one to make. I guess I'd like to see how that data is parsed out.. what was the stop for, why were they shot.

One issue at hand is that so many of the well documented cases of police shootings are for people who were shopping in a store, walking down the stairs, sleeping in their bed at home, sitting in their own home, a kid playing in the park, selling loose cigarettes, or accused of writing a fake check or using a fake $20 bill.

At best, a few have been petty crimes, and worst, they was NO REASON AT ALL to kill them.

The ones I feel bad for, that I also understand why the cops shot, were the people messing around with BB guns or pellet guns that look real. Those are more unfortunate circumstances.

So, I do think we need to make sure we're not speaking with too much hyperbole, I agree there. I don't think cops are out hunting blacks or something like that. Not as a group. I do think their murder rate is a bit high, but that's not even the real issue. It's the harassment, the physical contact. Now, the fear is that every single traffic stop, or a random stop on the street can lead to your death. It may be a bit irrational, since the odds are so low, but is it irrational to think you'll be arrested for no reason, or beaten up a bit?

From the DOJ paper you posted..

This adds similar commentary.

Police stops are still marred by racial discrimination, new data shows.
So why does Trump continue to endorse stop-and-frisk?
www.prisonpolicy.org

Then look at the number of traffic stops and street stops. Those are totally disproportionate. 26% of all street stops are black. Again, only 13% of the population. And, 17% of those 763200 had multiple contacts.

Would our reactions change if we found out that the use of force on Females suddenly tripled and was more than men? How would our society act? I'd think pretty swift.

People have always used hyperbole to fuel their points. This is no different. But I also don't think it's a mirage either.

The street stops shows a big disparity, and I have no doubt that some of that is racial profiling. I would be okay with requiring cops to justify their street stops. That is the only way we can discern abuse of that authority. With respect to the likelihood of physical force being about twice as likely in black encounters vs white encounters, that is probably due to behavior of the suspect. Those examples you cited that involved minor crimes are awful. I recall a little about some of those, but I don't know enough to comment.

I'll relay a story about behavior with the police that I hesitate to tell, because I know how some will cast it. I have a good black friend and business partner, who we have over for dinner frequently, that may not be unrepresentative of what black people teach their kids. He is a learned man that graduated from law school. His wife is a nurse, and also a terrific lady. He carries a chip on his shoulder about racism, and he dresses very sloppy. He has money, but could pass as a bum half the time. I don't know why. Maybe it is to be provocative or maybe he doesn't want people to know he has money. I would be leery of any man that approached me dressed like him. Interestingly, he likes me to be the front man in our business dealings, because he thinks people will respect me more. I digress from my point. My point is that he has a son that I'm very fond of. He is a wonderful kid that used to baby sit my kids some times. He was one of the most respectful kids I've ever met. Always addressed adults as sir. He was laid back, and doing all of the right things. Anyway, it shocked me that my friend taught him to resist the police. I told him that was a terrible thing to teach your kid. It would cause much more trouble for him. I didn't persuade him. His wife doesn't carry that same chip that he does, but I think his son internalized that attitude, and he has taken a turn for the worse, and it breaks my heart. I don't know if other black people teach that approach to their kids, but I see a lot of resentment among the black community. In many of the videos that I've seen, they seem too quick to become defensive and confrontational. I get the anger from the years of oppression, but many of the recent incidents stemmed from this resistant and disrespectful behavior. So I don't think we can simply look at the stat that shows more frequent physical force against blacks and conclude that the vast majority were racist. It is an indicator that we could have a racial problem, or it could be an indicator of black culture teaching their kids to be disrespectful to the cops due to past injustices or fear. Every cop needs to be accountable for physical force, but so do the people encountering the police. Let's make policy that assure that both are accountable.

Tony1Sainstfan · Jun 16, 2020

wardorican said:
I dont watch CNN. I dont have cable.

I'd rather you engage with me vs bringing up what you think the group thinks.

Some people have given up believing in the system. That isn't a right or left thing. I see it by both. Those people are going to present more extreme views. We don't have to agree with them.

Look I understand some that have given up and in some ways I have felt that way before. I have never felt that we should blow up this system. I didn’t agree with most of the things Obama did and I was frustrated and down for almost all of his time in office. You should know that politics is a pendulum and things go from side to side but very seldom go forward over the short time.
True police reform can happen with some good ideas. The executive order Trump signed today has some very good ideas in it but it shouldn’t be the last word. My hope is that no one else looses their life on both sides and we get a chance to see how these new measures work and don’t so we can make additional changes if needed.

Lapaz · Jun 16, 2020

insidejob said:
Does this clear things up for those who don't seem to get it?

That doesn't clear things up, because that chart doesn't agree with this link:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ showing police killings from 2017 to 2020.

Also, posting a chart, without context, is nothing more than a clue, but is not conclusive. The Washington Post is a paid site, so I couldn't check it out for more context. Other sites I've checked state that the actual police killings per year is about 1000/year out of over 7 million arrests per year. That's 0.014% of arrests. Arrests are dangerous, and sometimes people start shooting. We need to know why those killings occurred. If a cop is a killer, then I support them being fired and imprisoned. I support the registries. Any killers period need to be arrested. I'm all for accountability, but the matter is not clear-cut.

dtc · Jun 16, 2020

Tony1Sainstfan said:
Look I understand some that have given up and in some ways I have felt that way before. I have never felt that we should blow up this system. I didn’t agree with most of the things Obama did and I was frustrated and down for almost all of his time in office. You should know that politics is a pendulum and things go from side to side but very seldom go forward over the short time.
True police reform can happen with some good ideas. The executive order Trump signed today has some very good ideas in it but it shouldn’t be the last word. My hope is that no one else looses their life on both sides and we get a chance to see how these new measures work and don’t so we can make additional changes if needed.

Not to totally derail, but would you list a few things you didn't like that Obama did? Maybe 5. Thanks

wardorican · Jun 16, 2020

Lapaz said:
The street stops shows a big disparity, and I have no doubt that some of that is racial profiling. I would be okay with requiring cops to justify their street stops. That is the only way we can discern abuse of that authority. With respect to the likelihood of physical force being about twice as likely in black encounters vs white encounters, that is probably due to behavior of the suspect. Those examples you cited that involved minor crimes are awful. I recall a little about some of those, but I don't know enough to comment.

I'll relay a story about behavior with the police that I hesitate to tell, because I know how some will cast it. I have a good black friend and business partner, who we have over for dinner frequently, that may not be unrepresentative of what black people teach their kids. He is a learned man that graduated from law school. His wife is a nurse, and also a terrific lady. He carries a chip on his shoulder about racism, and he dresses very sloppy. He has money, but could pass as a bum half the time. I don't know why. Maybe it is to be provocative or maybe he doesn't want people to know he has money. I would be leery of any man that approached me dressed like him. Interestingly, he likes me to be the front man in our business dealings, because he thinks people will respect me more. I digress from my point. My point is that he has a son that I'm very fond of. He is a wonderful kid that used to baby sit my kids some times. He was one of the most respectful kids I've ever met. Always addressed adults as sir. He was laid back, and doing all of the right things. Anyway, it shocked me that my friend taught him to resist the police. I told him that was a terrible thing to teach your kid. It would cause much more trouble for him. I didn't persuade him. His wife doesn't carry that same chip that he does, but I think his son internalized that attitude, and he has taken a turn for the worse, and it breaks my heart. I don't know if other black people teach that approach to their kids, but I see a lot of resentment among the black community. In many of the videos that I've seen, they seem too quick to become defensive and confrontational. I get the anger from the years of oppression, but many of the recent incidents stemmed from this resistant and disrespectful behavior. So I don't think we can simply look at the stat that shows more frequent physical force against blacks and conclude that the vast majority were racist. It is an indicator that we could have a racial problem, or it could be an indicator of black culture teaching their kids to be disrespectful to the cops due to past injustices or fear. Every cop needs to be accountable for physical force, but so do the people encountering the police. Let's make policy that assure that both are accountable.

I'm sure it doesn't help.

The law is pretty clear that police don't have to know the law, they can arrest you, even if they're wrong. You don't argue on the streets. You remember, document what you can, and sue the living hell out of them. That's what I'd teach the kids.

Tony1Sainstfan · Jun 17, 2020

dtc said:
Not to totally derail, but would you list a few things you didn't like that Obama did? Maybe 5. Thanks

I‘ll list you the top 5 because I have 8 years to fall back on.
5.. The Iran deal. He did nothing but make Iran stronger just like Clinton did to North Korea except Iran was worse.
4.. His apology tour. No American President should go around apologizing to foreign diplomats. Obama did and he and he enjoyed it.
3.. His terrible recovery. I’ll give him this he inherited a bad economy. The issue is his shovel ready jobs weren’t there. The result was the worst recovery ever.
2.. His numerous scandals. The black panther voter intimidation’s NSA warrantless surveillance sending pallets of cash to Iran IRS targeting fast and furious gun walking Benghazi solyndra and on and on. I could have just listed scandals to give you 5.
1.. Obamacare He promised ”If you like your plan you can keep it” so many times we all lost count. He promised we’d save $2,500 a year when in fact most peoples rates went up with some as high as a 200% increase. He promised “If you like your Dr you can still see him” which was bull. The changing of medical coding was enough by itself to be ashamed of.

Here’s something he gave us you’ll love. Largely because of him we got Trump. If not for Obama Hillary might have been President by now. So I guess I owe you a thank you.

Farb · Jun 17, 2020

dtc said:
Not to totally derail, but would you list a few things you didn't like that Obama did? Maybe 5. Thanks

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