All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (19 Viewers)

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    Maxp

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    I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?
     
    different political context up here - the debate and discussion over COVID policy has been pretty agreeable and most everyone is getting behind the policies put in place.

    Of course, there's been some casual racism and sexism - Canada's not immune to it. And the Premier of the province, brother to the eponymous Rob Ford of the Rob Ford Saga, is a highly controversial figure with abysmally low approval ratings.

    But he's been moderately successful with his messaging until recent weeks. A number of people from the other side of the political aisle (which constitutes about 65% of the population and elected officials) were giving him props.

    A definite difference in tone vs. back home.

    But recent criticism has led to him change his tune on regional re-opening the province. He was initially against it, but the science is starting to back it. The rural areas that are least hit being allowed to move ahead a little bit. Here in Toronto, it's going to be a different matter.

    There's political expediency to the decision, for sure, but I think there's logic behind it, too.
     
    SystemShock said:
    No.


    Maybe it is that English is my 3rd language, but it clearly reads to me that this political commentator is the one making a big deal out of the kidney donation that happened "months ago", and how compromised this man's immune system is, to shout how despicable the GOP is.

    And, whether the GOP is despicable or not, I can live without the dramatic license and embellishment from Twitterites looking for likes.



    I'll let the conservatives know when I talk to them.
    Click to expand...

    One of the complicating factors I recall from the first list of things were recent major surgeries.
     
    MT15 said:
    Ugh, between that and the Springfield Great Clips fiasco, it could be a problem. My son live just about 1.5 hours north of Springfield. 🤞🏻Sure hope he will be okay.
    Click to expand...
    I hope so too. I would imagine that the next spike in cases will come in areas where people interpreted the reopening as an “all clear” from the government. No one intended that and all of the more optimistic projections were based on an assumption that people would continue to follow the CDC safety guidelines until a vaccine is developed. Obviously, that has not occurred in many areas.
     
    He is maintaining the recommended practices of wearing a mask when out in public and only getting food orders “to go”. He was thinking about getting a hair cut until the Great Clips case, now he says he won’t do that yet either. So I feel he will be safer than most. He teaches, though, and they will have in person classes in the fall. They’re still trying to work out the details, like many other institutions.
     
    A major study on the effects of hydroxychloroquine on COVID-19 patients was retracted from a leading medical journal Thursday after doctors and scientists raised questions about the validity of the data.

    The study had concluded patients taking the anti-malaria drug had a higher risk of death than those who were not taking the medication, leading some researchers to suspend their clinical trials.
    Click to expand...
    thehill.com

    Authors retract major COVID-19 paper on effects of hydroxychloroquine

    A major study on the effects of hydroxychloroquine on COVID-19 patients was retracted from a leading medical journal Thursday after doctors and scientists raised questions about the validity of the data.
    thehill.com thehill.com

    So what the heck happened here? Genuinely, how does something like this happen if you're acting in good faith? My first guess would be to say that political motivations may have played a role, because it just seems so weird otherwise. I don't really know much about all this, but isn't peer review pretty much standard in anything like this?
     
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    SystemShock said:
    Maybe it is that English is my 3rd language, but it clearly reads to me that this political commentator is the one making a big deal out of the kidney donation that happened "months ago", and how compromised this man's immune system is, to shout how despicable the GOP is.
    Click to expand...
    • Most donors need to plan on between 1.5-2 weeks off work for the donation surgery and recovery time.
    • It takes between 4 to 6 weeks for full recovery from the surgery.
    • There are always risks involved in any major surgical procedure. Infection, allergic reactions, injury to other organs and tissue, pneumonia, and even death are all possibilities following surgery. Be aware of the risk and weigh it against your decision to donate.
    • Possible long-term risks to donating a kidney include hyper-tension (high blood pressure), hernia, organ impairment and the need for organ transplant, kidney failure, and death.
    Click to expand...

    You're assuming everything went perfectly with his surgery and he was his same old self a couple weeks after the donation. It can seriously compromise for the rest of their lives. Read the last two bullet points about donating a kidney.

    He has/had every right to be pissed that the GOP hid the fact they knew one of their members had COVID and didn't do anything even to warn the Democrats about it so they could stay away or tell him to gtf if he wouldn't wear a mask (which I'm sure he wouldn't since that makes you weak in their eyes).

    You're being intentionally obtuse focusing on his level of being immunocompromised. I'm immunocompromised from a nasty infection I contracted that caused me to have a pretty major surgery and has left me unresponsive to oral antibiotics for going on two years now. Unless you know the actual details of this guys health, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Hope you never have to live immunocompromised for any particular length of time.
     
    That tweet from a Breitbart project director is satisfying. That’s the tweet of someone who sees that they are becoming irrelevant, and it irks them.

    (It also whatabouts a pandemic in two different stages of transmission, completely ignoring the fact that every state is opening up by now, and playing victim. It’s what the alt right does best, but I digress).

    People who are protesting know the risks. They are mostly wearing masks, although it’s obvious that social distancing is out the window. They are outside, though, which we are learning is safer than being indoors in a crowd. They take the risk because this moment is too important to not take that risk.

    They aren’t protesting because they can’t get a haircut or their nails done. They are protesting to say that racial injustice has got to be dealt with now. It’s just a tad more important.
     
    MT15 said:
    That tweet from a Breitbart project director is satisfying. That’s the tweet of someone who sees that they are becoming irrelevant, and it irks them.

    (It also whatabouts a pandemic in two different stages of transmission, completely ignoring the fact that every state is opening up by now, and playing victim. It’s what the alt right does best, but I digress).

    People who are protesting know the risks. They are mostly wearing masks, although it’s obvious that social distancing is out the window. They are outside, though, which we are learning is safer than being indoors in a crowd. They take the risk because this moment is too important to not take that risk.

    They aren’t protesting because they can’t get a haircut or their nails done. They are protesting to say that racial injustice has got to be dealt with now. It’s just a tad more important.
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    The public health officials, Governors, and Mayors who are advocating for people to go protest after telling us not to go to funerals or visit a family member in the hospital have lost all credibility.

    John Hopkins Epidemiologist:


    Politico:
    www.politico.com

    Suddenly, Public Health Officials Say Social Justice Matters More Than Social Distance

    For months, health experts told Americans to stay home. Now, many are encouraging the public to join mass protests.
    www.politico.com www.politico.com

    20200607_163605.png

    20200607_163609.png

    20200607_163614.png

    20200607_163616.png
     
    MT15 said:
    That tweet from a Breitbart project director is satisfying. That’s the tweet of someone who sees that they are becoming irrelevant, and it irks them.

    (It also whatabouts a pandemic in two different stages of transmission, completely ignoring the fact that every state is opening up by now, and playing victim. It’s what the alt right does best, but I digress).

    People who are protesting know the risks. They are mostly wearing masks, although it’s obvious that social distancing is out the window. They are outside, though, which we are learning is safer than being indoors in a crowd. They take the risk because this moment is too important to not take that risk.

    They aren’t protesting because they can’t get a haircut or their nails done. They are protesting to say that racial injustice has got to be dealt with now. It’s just a tad more important.
    Click to expand...

    So, a week earlier we were told that mass gatherings were super spreader events.

    Covid kills black people with greater frequency than white people.

    But, now it's okay to have mass gatherings -- if it is to make a symbolic statement that black lives matter.

    I guess that is because, as you say, the virus is in a different stage of transmission. Is there a scientific study that you are relying on for such a drastic change in your position? Something that supports your belief that the virus changed so much in a week's time?

    I am wondering because we ruined our economy, destroyed businesses, prevented people from having health issues addressed and caused harm in countless other ways based on the word of "experts" that it was all necessary.

    Now, experts say that it is okay to disregard social distancing guidelines if it is to make a particular political statement.

    The way I see it, either way we have ruined the economy for nothing. Either, we could have opened up the economy as soon as we saw that we were not going to overwhelm the medical system, or these mass protests held simultaneously all over the nation will have undone all the gains we achieved during the lockdown.
     
    It looks like any spikes that occur will not be limited to the U.S. They are also gathering for the purpose of racial justice in the UK.

    We are all in this together.

     
    I’m not downplaying the risk of large crowds, I’m just pointing out that a) people are wearing masks, b) these marches and protests are outside, c) this is taking place after restrictions have been largely lifted in most places.

    Anecdotally, we seem to be keeping most people alive who are hospitalized with Covid. Where I am we aren’t seeming to have the same amount of deaths as were seen early in the disease, especially on the East Coast. It makes sense to me that as doctors see more cases, they will come up with more effective treatments. Our convalescent plasma program is getting a lot of use, so the doctors must feel it is helping.

    This isn’t to downplay the threat of the virus. We had our third death locally this weekend. But we’ve been gradually opening up businesses for about 3 weeks now, and haven’t seen a huge uptick in hospitalizations. Yet. Fingers crossed.

    Nobody wanted to ruin the economy over this. We are in a position to open up now because we are starting to do enough testing to catch it before it runs through the whole community. We are routinely testing everyone pre-surgery, and testing all OB patients. We still run up against shortages of test kits, but our system has gone live with three different platforms so that when reagents for one run out, they can go to a backup analyzer.

    Comparing the situation now to the situation 3 months ago is just invalid.
     
    What MT15 said above is certainly true. We have learned a bunch. The spread has obviously slowed down with warm weather. Social distancing and other actions have slowed the spread to the point we have begun to open back up and nobody wanted to ruin the economy. That's just crud.

    Still, politicians are weather vanes. And, these doctors or scientists are making an ethical value judgment based on what they believe is a priority. As I recall, 1100 isn't alot nor is their opinion universal, but it is what it is.

    There will be an increase in cases from public gatherings. There are already upticks evident in FL and other states that have reopened. Weather is helping. Efforts to curtail spread are helping. And doctors have learned better ways to treat people. There is even anectdotal evidence that different strains have lessened virility, but the argument that Flip and Beach are making seems to be that it was unnecessary in hindsight to take any of the measures we took because now people are protesting and the medical system has not been overwhelmed.

    To me that's a ludicrous argument. Nobody had enough information before to know what the future held so you act prudently and safely in order to avoid a worst case scenario. We have done that and seemingly avoided the dire potential although saying that as I have seems stupid given that we have now had 110k dead and more continue to die every single day.

    We aren't at the end. We are probably at the end of the beginning and we can be hopeful, but we shouldn't be stupid. These protests and the mass accumulation of people seem pretty stupid to me given the risks so I'm not going to participate. I don't think anyone should be, but I also though the people protesting at the MI governor's mansion were idiots 3 weeks ago. And, the people who went to churches. Only time will tell.
     
    dtc said:
    What MT15 said above is certainly true. We have learned a bunch. The spread has obviously slowed down with warm weather. Social distancing and other actions have slowed the spread to the point we have begun to open back up and nobody wanted to ruin the economy. That's just crud.

    Still, politicians are weather vanes. And, these doctors or scientists are making an ethical value judgment based on what they believe is a priority. As I recall, 1100 isn't alot nor is their opinion universal, but it is what it is.

    There will be an increase in cases from public gatherings. There are already upticks evident in FL and other states that have reopened. Weather is helping. Efforts to curtail spread are helping. And doctors have learned better ways to treat people. There is even anectdotal evidence that different strains have lessened virility, but the argument that Flip and Beach are making seems to be that it was unnecessary in hindsight to take any of the measures we took because now people are protesting and the medical system has not been overwhelmed.

    To me that's a ludicrous argument. Nobody had enough information before to know what the future held so you act prudently and safely in order to avoid a worst case scenario. We have done that and seemingly avoided the dire potential although saying that as I have seems stupid given that we have now had 110k dead and more continue to die every single day.

    We aren't at the end. We are probably at the end of the beginning and we can be hopeful, but we shouldn't be stupid. These protests and the mass accumulation of people seem pretty stupid to me given the risks so I'm not going to participate. I don't think anyone should be, but I also though the people protesting at the MI governor's mansion were idiots 3 weeks ago. And, the people who went to churches. Only time will tell.
    Click to expand...

    I don't know how you can say what I said is lootaruthschris and then disagree with the what these particular experts are saying.

    My position is that it can be one or the other, but not both. We didn't learn that much about the virus between Memorial Day and last weekend.

    I have rejoined society, but I am not going to events where there are thousands (or even hundreds) of people either.
     
    MT15 said:
    I’m not downplaying the risk of large crowds, I’m just pointing out that a) people are wearing masks, b) these marches and protests are outside, c) this is taking place after restrictions have been largely lifted in most places.

    Anecdotally, we seem to be keeping most people alive who are hospitalized with Covid. Where I am we aren’t seeming to have the same amount of deaths as were seen early in the disease, especially on the East Coast. It makes sense to me that as doctors see more cases, they will come up with more effective treatments. Our convalescent plasma program is getting a lot of use, so the doctors must feel it is helping.

    This isn’t to downplay the threat of the virus. We had our third death locally this weekend. But we’ve been gradually opening up businesses for about 3 weeks now, and haven’t seen a huge uptick in hospitalizations. Yet. Fingers crossed.

    Nobody wanted to ruin the economy over this. We are in a position to open up now because we are starting to do enough testing to catch it before it runs through the whole community. We are routinely testing everyone pre-surgery, and testing all OB patients. We still run up against shortages of test kits, but our system has gone live with three different platforms so that when reagents for one run out, they can go to a backup analyzer.

    Comparing the situation now to the situation 3 months ago is just invalid.
    Click to expand...
    Restrictions haven't been totally lifted. Most places are still in stage 1 of reopening everything and there are 4 phases.

    The people who previously made a similar argument as you are now were shouted down by those on the left including here and Democratic politicians as people who prefer capitalism over people's lives.

    Trump and the Republican Governors were criticized for wanting to reopen things too early.
     
    Beach Friends said:
    I don't know how you can say what I said is lootaruthschris and then disagree with the what these particular experts are saying.

    My position is that it can be one or the other, but not both. We didn't learn that much about the virus between Memorial Day and last weekend.

    I have rejoined society, but I am not going to events where there are thousands (or even hundreds) of people either.
    Click to expand...

    I said the argument that we shouldn't have done anything is ludicrous. My apology if I misinterpreted your cries against destroying the economy for political reasons as an argument against cautious reactions during the early phases.

    And, I said the people protesting and politicians are now being stupid and specifically acting as weathervanes tracking the wind.
     

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