Capitalism (1 Viewer)

[Huntn]

Capitalism- good or bad?

This is not my answer that it is bad per se, but the following is what triggered this thread. When I think of a country, I think of it’s citizens as being members of Team USA, Team Canada, or Team UK, etc, and with companies, corporations, I see issues where the emphasis is on profits, not my team. For corporations, the team is not my country, but my small group of capital collectors, and one thing that irritates me constantly is when I call a company, say a U.S. based insurance company and I end up talking to someone in India, or the Philippines. Hey profits up, but citizens (team members) are disenfranchised, the income levels of the home country is undermined, millions of jobs exported to cheap labor locations. I’ve witnessed this in manufacturing for at least the last 30-40 years. When it comes to profits there is no National loyalty. As I said, the team is the corporation, and sometimes, it’s not even the people working locally, some of those like assembly line workers are viewed as drains on the bottom line. Thoughts?

 

[TampaJoe]

Oh good grief.

You roll in here all huffy about something I said, and you now make it obvious you aren’t even reading the threads. There’s just recently been a discussion about this.

No, it’s not inference. It’s what they say. It’s what they write.

Really. Well reference the post that contains a quote to that effect. Something credible. My guess is that you have nothing that they have said. But I will wait for you to prove me wrong.

I’m anxious to read where a tech CEO in this country said we don’t need democracy or capitalism anymore.

You roll in here huffy all the time demanding proof. So put it up.

 

[TampaJoe]

Oh you most certainly are. You’re the one lobbing accusations around about stereotyping and such. You have been whining for 2 solid days about this. Just let it go.

The tech billionaires aren’t going to see you defending them, lol.

The tech guys can speak for themselves. I’m anxious for you to show quotes from a number of them to support your acquisitions. Otherwise you are indeed assigning positions to them they haven’t taken due to some stereotype you have conjured in your head. Now you can call them facts all day long but that doesn’t make it so. It is imaginary.

 

[MT15]

The tech guys can speak for themselves. I’m anxious for you to show quotes from a number of them to support your acquisitions. Otherwise you are indeed assigning positions to them they haven’t taken due to some stereotype you have conjured in your head. Now you can call them facts all day long but that doesn’t make it so. It is imaginary.

You never show proof yet you demand it of me. So precious.

Thiel: from a 3 year old article https://www.theguardian.com/comment...naire-class-is-funding-anti-democratic-forces

“Decades ago, America’s monied interests bankrolled a Republican establishment that believed in fiscal conservatism, anti-communism and constitutional democracy.

Today’s billionaire class is pushing a radically anti-democratic agenda for America – backing Trump’s lie that the 2020 election was stolen, calling for restrictions on voting and even questioning the value of democracy.

Peter Thiel, the billionaire tech financier who is among those leading the charge, once wrote, “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.””

 

[MT15]

Read about Curtis Yarvin. That’s who is influencing Musk, Thiel, Andreessen, and others - I had to look up this guy - Balaji Srinivasan, also influenced by Yarvin.

Curtis Yarvin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MT15]

Along with disenfranchising women and minorities, here is one paragraph of Yarvin’s views, this is all from his Wikipedia page:

“Under his Moldbug pseudonym, Yarvin gave a talk about "rebooting" the American government at the 2012 BIL Conference. He used it to advocate the acronym "RAGE", which he defined as "Retire All Government Employees". He described what he felt were flaws in the accepted "World War II mythology", alluding to the idea that Adolf Hitler's invasions were acts of self-defense. He argued these discrepancies were pushed by America's "ruling communists", who invented political correctness as an "extremely elaborate mechanism for persecuting racists and fascists".[50] "If Americans want to change their government," he said, "they're going to have to get over their dictator phobia."[51]

In the inaugural article published on Unqualified Reservations in 2007, entitled "A formalist manifesto", Yarvin called his concept of aligning property rights with political power "formalism", that is, the formal recognition of realities of the existing power, which should eventually be replaced in his view by a new ideology that rejects progressive doctrines transmitted by the Cathedral.[49][52] Yarvin's first use of the term "neoreactionary" to describe his project occurred in 2008.[53][54] His ideas have also been described by Dylan Matthews of Vox as "neo-monarchist".[15]”

Thiel was arguably the first tech bro to be influence by Yarvin, but definitely not the last.

Peter Thiel was an investor in Yarvin's startup Tlon and gave $100,000 to Tlon's co-founder John Burnham in 2011.[55][56] In 2016, Yarvin privately asserted to Milo Yiannopoulos that he had been "coaching Thiel" and that he had watched the 2016 U.S. presidential election at Thiel's house.[57] In his writings, Yarvin has pointed to a 2009 essay by Thiel, in which the latter declared: "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible .... Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women—two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians—have rendered the notion of 'capitalist democracy' into an oxymoron."[58]

Yarvin's ideas have been influential among right-libertarians and paleolibertarians, and the public discourses of prominent investors like Thiel have echoed Yarvin's project of seceding from the United States to establish tech-CEO dictatorships.[59][56] Journalist Jonathan Wilson has described Yarvin as an obscure far-right thinker with "a serious intellectual influence on key figures in Donald Trump's coming administration".[2] Venture capitalist Marc Andreessen, an informal adviser to Donald Trump, has spoken approvingly of Yarvin's thinking.[1] Political strategist Steve Bannon has read and admired his work.[20] Vice-president JD Vance has cited Yarvin as an influence, saying in 2021, "So there's this guy Curtis Yarvin who has written about these things", which included "Retire All Government Employees" or RAGE, written in 2012. Vance said that if Trump became president again, "I think what Trump should do, if I was giving him one piece of advice: Fire every single midlevel bureaucrat, every civil servant in the administrative state, and replace them with our people. And when the courts stop you, stand before the country and say, 'The chief justice has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it.'"[21][60]

 

[cuddlemonkey]

I am not the one whining here.

You're about two steps away from yelling at clouds...

 

[TampaJoe]

Along with disenfranchising women and minorities, here is one paragraph of Yarvin’s views, this is all from his Wikipedia page:

“Under his Moldbug pseudonym, Yarvin gave a talk about "rebooting" the American government at the 2012 BIL Conference. He used it to advocate the acronym "RAGE", which he defined as "Retire All Government Employees". He described what he felt were flaws in the accepted "World War II mythology", alluding to the idea that Adolf Hitler's invasions were acts of self-defense. He argued these discrepancies were pushed by America's "ruling communists", who invented political correctness as an "extremely elaborate mechanism for persecuting racists and fascists".[50] "If Americans want to change their government," he said, "they're going to have to get over their dictator phobia."[51]

In the inaugural article published on Unqualified Reservations in 2007, entitled "A formalist manifesto", Yarvin called his concept of aligning property rights with political power "formalism", that is, the formal recognition of realities of the existing power, which should eventually be replaced in his view by a new ideology that rejects progressive doctrines transmitted by the Cathedral.[49][52] Yarvin's first use of the term "neoreactionary" to describe his project occurred in 2008.[53][54] His ideas have also been described by Dylan Matthews of Vox as "neo-monarchist".[15]”

Thiel was arguably the first tech bro to be influence by Yarvin, but definitely not the last.

Peter Thiel was an investor in Yarvin's startup Tlon and gave $100,000 to Tlon's co-founder John Burnham in 2011.[55][56] In 2016, Yarvin privately asserted to Milo Yiannopoulos that he had been "coaching Thiel" and that he had watched the 2016 U.S. presidential election at Thiel's house.[57] In his writings, Yarvin has pointed to a 2009 essay by Thiel, in which the latter declared: "I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible .... Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women—two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians—have rendered the notion of 'capitalist democracy' into an oxymoron."[58]

Yarvin's ideas have been influential among right-libertarians and paleolibertarians, and the public discourses of prominent investors like Thiel have echoed Yarvin's project of seceding from the United States to establish tech-CEO dictatorships.[59][56] Journalist Jonathan Wilson has described Yarvin as an obscure far-right thinker with "a serious intellectual influence on key figures in Donald Trump's coming administration".[2] Venture capitalist Marc Andreessen, an informal adviser to Donald Trump, has spoken approvingly of Yarvin's thinking.[1] Political strategist Steve Bannon has read and admired his work.[20] Vice-president JD Vance has cited Yarvin as an influence, saying in 2021, "So there's this guy Curtis Yarvin who has written about these things", which included "Retire All Government Employees" or RAGE, written in 2012. Vance said that if Trump became president again, "I think what Trump should do, if I was giving him one piece of advice: Fire every single midlevel bureaucrat, every civil servant in the administrative state, and replace them with our people. And when the courts stop you, stand before the country and say, 'The chief justice has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it.'"[21][60]

Yeah. Editorials from Robert Reich with references to one tech billionaire. That is your proof regarding the thinking of all tech ceos.

Never lecture me again about offering “proof” for anything. Never lecture me again about “facts”. You have to be kidding. You cannot really be serious. You wouldn’t know proof or a real fact if it jumped up and bit you on your arse.

 

[bird]

Oh you most certainly are. You’re the one lobbing accusations around about stereotyping and such. You have been whining for 2 solid days about this. Just let it go.

The tech billionaires aren’t going to see you defending them, lol.

Tech billionaires are worse than standard billionaires. And standard billionaires suck.

 

[bird]

You never show proof yet you demand it of me. So precious.

Thiel: from a 3 year old article https://www.theguardian.com/comment...naire-class-is-funding-anti-democratic-forces

“Decades ago, America’s monied interests bankrolled a Republican establishment that believed in fiscal conservatism, anti-communism and constitutional democracy.

Today’s billionaire class is pushing a radically anti-democratic agenda for America – backing Trump’s lie that the 2020 election was stolen, calling for restrictions on voting and even questioning the value of democracy.

Peter Thiel, the billionaire tech financier who is among those leading the charge, once wrote, “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.””

Thiel’s quote is easily translatable. “Democracy prevents me from doing whatever the fork I want consequences to anyone else be damned.” He is a piece of schlitz.

 

[bird]

Here is an idea…

Rendition the Techbros. Make sure that during the process they have no access to any communication devices. Send them to an island which is uninhabited and which has no access to communication.

Leave them there.

 

[TampaJoe]

You never show proof yet you demand it of me. So precious.

Thiel: from a 3 year old article https://www.theguardian.com/comment...naire-class-is-funding-anti-democratic-forces

“Decades ago, America’s monied interests bankrolled a Republican establishment that believed in fiscal conservatism, anti-communism and constitutional democracy.

Today’s billionaire class is pushing a radically anti-democratic agenda for America – backing Trump’s lie that the 2020 election was stolen, calling for restrictions on voting and even questioning the value of democracy.

Peter Thiel, the billionaire tech financier who is among those leading the charge, once wrote, “I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible.””

Did you even read Peter Thiel’s essay or did you just parrot back what Robert Reich told you to think.

The essay was not about disenfranchising anyone. Thief is a libertarian. In fact he shares many of your positions on individual liberties.

I encourage you to read the actual essay and especially Thiel’s note at the end regarding disenfranchisement of women. Maybe do some thinking for yourself instead of letting other people tell you what to think.

I have linked it for your convienience.

The Education of a Libertarian

www.cato-unbound.org

 

[bird]

Did you even read Peter Thiel’s essay or did you just parrot back what Robert Reich told you to think.

The essay was not about disenfranchising anyone. Thief is a libertarian. In fact he shares many of your positions on individual liberties.

I encourage you to read the actual essay and especially Thiel’s note at the end regarding disenfranchisement of women. Maybe do some thinking for yourself instead of letting other people tell you what to think.

I have linked it for your convienience.

The Education of a Libertarian

www.cato-unbound.org

Libertarians are a combination of utopians at best (useless dreamers) and spoiled 4 year olds at worst.

 

[MT15]

Yeah. Editorials from Robert Reich with references to one tech billionaire. That is your proof regarding the thinking of all tech ceos.

Never lecture me again about offering “proof” for anything. Never lecture me again about “facts”. You have to be kidding. You cannot really be serious. You wouldn’t know proof or a real fact if it jumped up and bit you on your arse.

You didn’t read anything. And once again, you are misrepresenting what I said. i never said “all tech CEOs” once. About anything. Never mentioned them. I am speaking about tech billionaires, and only a subset of them. Your constant misrepresentation of what I am saying is growing tiring. It is either intentional (and trolling or worse) or you aren’t capable of having this conversation. Which is it?

My proof was in 3 separate posts. The editorial was just part of the first one. But even the editorial had quotes from Thiel’s own writing on the subject of democracy.

Evidently you just quit after looking at the first post?

I provided you with far more proof for this one issue than you have ever provided on here for anything you’ve ever said. And I provided it in good faith. Yet you continue to insult me personally over my simple statement of fact that there is a group of billionaires (mostly tech) who don’t believe in democracy and are taking steps to get rid of it. It’s just a fact.

Why does this fact set you off into yelling at clouds mode?

 

[MT15]

Did you even read Peter Thiel’s essay or did you just parrot back what Robert Reich told you to think.

The essay was not about disenfranchising anyone. Thief is a libertarian. In fact he shares many of your positions on individual liberties.

I encourage you to read the actual essay and especially Thiel’s note at the end regarding disenfranchisement of women. Maybe do some thinking for yourself instead of letting other people tell you what to think.

I have linked it for your convienience.

The Education of a Libertarian

www.cato-unbound.org

Thiel is a kook and a dangerous one at that. I read it. He’s crawfishing at the end because enough people called him a kook or a bigot or a misogynist after reading it.

He says that giving women the vote was a mistake in his opinion. How am I to take that? And his clarification doesn’t take it back, it just acknowledges that women won’t actually be disenfranchised. He doesn’t share my views on individual liberties because I am an individual, and he wishes I was never given the right to vote. He seems to actually wish none of us could vote. I mean nobody in America, because as he puts it - “I no longer believe democracy and freedom are compatible.”

Thiel has influenced many of his fellow billionaires. I listed 3 billionaires who follow this line of thought, and are influenced by Yarvin. There are others.

 

[TampaJoe]

You didn’t read anything. And once again, you are misrepresenting what I said. i never said “all tech CEOs” once. About anything. Never mentioned them. I am speaking about tech billionaires, and only a subset of them. Your constant misrepresentation of what I am saying is growing tiring. It is either intentional (and trolling or worse) or you aren’t capable of having this conversation. Which is it?

My proof was in 3 separate posts. The editorial was just part of the first one. But even the editorial had quotes from Thiel’s own writing on the subject of democracy.

Evidently you just quit after looking at the first post?

I provided you with far more proof for this one issue than you have ever provided on here for anything you’ve ever said. And I provided it in good faith. Yet you continue to insult me personally over my simple statement of fact that there is a group of billionaires (mostly tech) who don’t believe in democracy and are taking steps to get rid of it. It’s just a fact.

Why does this fact set you off into yelling at clouds mode?

No. It is not a fact MT. I actually read the thesis that contained the quote. Did you? Because when you read the thesis and you see the quote in context. It doesn’t say what you claim. Further Thiel goes further in his follow-up which was also included in my attachment where he said the thought he was suggesting disenfranching voters was “absurd”. HE clearly refutes your statement in his own words. So you proved nothing. It isn’t fact. It is your opinion and it isn’t based on anything but your own bias.

It is your opinion. You are welcome to it. But it isn’t based on facts. It’s based on opinion and it was an opinion given to you by someone else. If you find that insulting, then that is your problem. You over promised and way under delivered.

 

[TampaJoe]

Thiel is a kook and a dangerous one at that. I read it. He’s crawfishing at the end because enough people called him a kook or a bigot or a misogynist after reading it.

He says that giving women the vote was a mistake in his opinion. How am I to take that? And his clarification doesn’t take it back, it just acknowledges that women won’t actually be disenfranchised. He doesn’t share my views on individual liberties because I am an individual, and he wishes I was never given the right to vote. He seems to actually wish none of us could vote. I mean nobody in America, because as he puts it - “I no longer believe democracy and freedom are compatible.”

Thiel has influenced many of his fellow billionaires. I listed 3 billionaires who follow this line of thought, and are influenced by Yarvin. There are others.

Please point to the exact language in the thesis where he says giving women the vote was a mistake. He did say it made it tough for libertarians. He did not say what you claim. He explains that further in his comments.

So we can believe what HE says or we can believe what you imagine he meant. I think he is in a better position to represent what is on his own mind. But maybe I’m wrong. You could be a psychic.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Yeah. Editorials from Robert Reich with references to one tech billionaire. That is your proof regarding the thinking of all tech ceos.

Never lecture me again about offering “proof” for anything. Never lecture me again about “facts”. You have to be kidding. You cannot really be serious. You wouldn’t know proof or a real fact if it jumped up and bit you on your arse.

PTK

 

[MT15]

No. It is not a fact MT. I actually read the thesis that contained the quote. Did you? Because when you read the thesis and you see the quote in context. It doesn’t say what you claim. Further Thiel goes further in his follow-up which was also included in my attachment where he said the thought he was suggesting disenfranching voters was “absurd”. HE clearly refutes your statement in his own words. So you proved nothing. It isn’t fact. It is your opinion and it isn’t based on anything but your own bias.

It is your opinion. You are welcome to it. But it isn’t based on facts. It’s based on opinion and it was an opinion given to you by someone else. If you find that insulting, then that is your problem. You over promised and way under delivered.

Have you read anything else? Did you read anything about Yarvin? You are doing what you do a lot, especially when you don’t have a solid leg to stand on - which is focusing on a side issue which isn’t especially pertinent to the question being discussed. You are distracting from the fact that Yarvin and his band of followers, don’t like democracy. At all. They don’t want the people to have a voice, they want the world to be ruled by technocrats. By themselves, actually.

Here, this is very recent.

Techno-Fascism Comes to America

The historic parallels that help explain Elon Musk’s rampage on the federal government.

www.newyorker.com

You can read Yarvin’s words yourself - although I don’t recommend it.

Unqualified Reservations by Mencius Moldbug

Unqualified Reservations by Mencius Moldbug. Ebook links and full chronological archive. An introduction to neoreaction (NRx).

www.unqualified-reservations.org