All things political. Coronavirus Edition. (6 Viewers)

[Maxp]

I fear we are really going to be in a bad place due to the obvious cuts to the federal agencies that deal with infectious disease, but also the negative effect the Affordable Care act has had on non urban hospitals. Our front line defenses are ineffectual and our ability to treat the populous is probably at an all time low. Factor in the cost of healthcare and I can see our system crashing. What do you think about the politics of this virus?

 

[el caliente]

I don’t think I believe that, based on your posting history. Nothing personal, just an observation. I think you like the right wing conspiracy theories better than the boring scientific facts.

I don’t think that you know me, and I don’t agree with that statement at all. In fact I would vehemently disagree with it. I am above personal attacks (as they are against the TOS), so bless your heart.

I’m for free speech from the left, right, center, wherever. I’m fine with hearing scientific options, or those that oppose scientific opinions. I have no problem being exposed to various views. It doesn’t mean that I am going to accept those views, but I’ll hear anyone out. Free speech is important for a society to grow.

I’m fine your opinions by the way, I’m also fine with Jon Stewart’s opinion, and what has been shared recently by the department of Energy.

 

[MT15]

I don’t think that you know me, and I don’t agree with that statement at all. In fact I would vehemently disagree with it. I am above personal attacks (as they are against the TOS), so bless your heart.

I’m for free speech from the left, right, center, wherever. I’m fine with hearing scientific options, or those that oppose scientific opinions. I have no problem being exposed to various views. It doesn’t mean that I am going to accept those views, but I’ll hear anyone out. Free speech is important for a society to grow.

I’m fine your opinions by the way, I’m also fine with Jon Stewart’s opinion, and what has been shared recently by the department of Energy.

No personal attack, el, certainly not intentional. I have noticed you posting contrarians who push conspiracy theories, that’s all.

I think that the idea that all opinions should have equal footing is a bit of a cop out, though. Nobody should confuse actual scientific findings that have proof with the musings of Catturd, for example.

 

[J-DONK]

I've been wondering what stake the Department of Energy has in this drama and whom at the department concluded that Covid most likely came with from lab leak. Was it really a group of physicist or do they actually have virologist at the DOE? Why were they involved in investigating this?

I guess I don't know what all goes on at the DOE, but it seemed odd to me that they would have a different conclusion than almost everybody else, even is it was of low confidence.

I think the most important thing to remember is that we don't have complete clarity on how Covid came about, and that's all due to the Chinese governments obfuscation. That is very bad because if we don't have the information and clarity to know for certain how it started, we can't make changes to make it less likely to happen next time.

DoE came to same conclusion as the FBI. They are not alone.

It's weird to see people use the early covid cases as proof that lab leak can't be true. I don't know if China has ever provided the raw data to the WHO. I could understand thinking lab leak was a conspiracy theory if China was truthful, and transparent. That's not reality.

The assumption that we will get an definitive answer one day because we have in the past is wrong. China may have already destroyed all the data, and samples necessary to do so.

 

[el caliente]

No personal attack, el, certainly not intentional. I have noticed you posting contrarians who push conspiracy theories, that’s all.

I think that the idea that all opinions should have equal footing is a bit of a cop out, though. Nobody should confuse actual scientific findings that have proof with the musings of Catturd, for example.

No personal attack, but like a falcons fan telling me about how your team has a shot at the Super Bowl, you are entitled to your opinion. I don’t agree with it, but you are entitled to it.

 

[el caliente]

Uh oh! Another crazy person with an opinion! First Jon Stewart, then Woody, now Nate? Who’s next, Bono!?!?

 

[MT15]

Nate’s take here is inherently flawed. He, and a lot of other people as well, assume that because scientists weren’t keen on discussing conspiracy theories that they were not also investigating the origin of the virus.

Scientists do not generally traffic in conspiracy theories, and especially those as unhinged as the “China did it on purpose” folks and they were very loud and very unhinged. Why should scientists be ashamed for not engaging with speculation that was reckless? Why should scientists be ashamed for saying it was better to wait for the studies to see what they could find?

The lab leak theory has been vigorously investigated, from a scientific standpoint, with genetic studies of the virus. Genetic studies do not support a virus that has been manipulated by humans. Virologists are satisfied, and they are the experts.

Whatever the DOE used to change their opinion wasn’t science. It was “intelligence” and classified as low confidence intelligence at that. So basically what people who want to take this to the bank for the origin of the virus are saying is that they believe the equivalent of the Steele Dossier.

The studies have been published now, these things take time, nothing is being hidden. Nate just should not be humored with this conspiratorial take here.

 

[Lapaz]

Can someone remind me why the origin matters if both are unintentional? The only reason that I think the origin matters is to determine the best way to prevent future releases. If we discover that it was deliberately released, or that China had information that would’ve saved lives, then I will care more. Otherwise the origin seems like a trivial matter.

 

[MT15]

Can someone remind me why the origin matters if both are unintentional? The only reason that I think the origin matters is to determine the best way to prevent future releases. If we discover that it was deliberately released, or that China had information that would’ve saved lives, then I will care more. Otherwise the origin seems like a trivial matter.

It only matters to conspiracy theorists who believe it was released intentionally-which NOBODY in any federal agency believes to be true. As a bonus, it gives them an excuse to be racist against Asian Americans.

 

[el caliente]

Can someone remind me why the origin matters if both are unintentional? The only reason that I think the origin matters is to determine the best way to prevent future releases. If we discover that it was deliberately released, or that China had information that would’ve saved lives, then I will care more. Otherwise the origin seems like a trivial matter.

Something something don’t learn from history something something something repeat it.

I would like to know the origins of Covid 19 as it changed my life (hell, it changed all of our lives) for the better part of the last 3 years (with no end in sight). If this did come from a lab, I would like to know to what end the creator(s) put together this cocktail of disaster.

If this was created in a lab, I would love to have those associated with the lab caught and hung up by their Little Buster Browns.

 

[el caliente]

It only matters to conspiracy theorists who believe it was released intentionally-which NOBODY in any federal agency believes to be true. As a bonus, it gives them an excuse to be racist against Asian Americans.

Is Jon Stewart really racist?

 

[MT15]

Is Jon Stewart really racist?

I cannot find a picture of straw big enough for this “quip”. But thanks for confirming the first part of what I said is true. Conspiracy theorists are convinced that this was released deliberately.

Oh, and I have read that there are several more corona viruses currently existing in animals that could make the jump, so get ready. It will probably happen again at some point, good thing we have the mRNA vaccine technology.

It has already happened several times in recent past - it’s the most common way novel viruses are introduced into human populations.

 

[el caliente]

I cannot find a picture of straw big enough for this “quip”. But thanks for confirming the first part of what I said is true. Conspiracy theorists are convinced that this was released deliberately.

Oh, and I have read that there are several more corona viruses currently existing in animals that could make the jump, so get ready. It will probably happen again at some point, good thing we have the mRNA vaccine technology.

It has already happened several times in recent past - it’s the most common way novel viruses are introduced into human populations.

So is Jon Stewart racist? That’s what I’m asking?

 

[MT15]

So is Jon Stewart racist? That’s what I’m asking?

I don’t have a clue - that was something of a sarcastic quip - I thought you would recognize it.

I think he’s capable of being wrong, and not an expert in virology.

 

[el caliente]

I don’t have a clue - that was something of a sarcastic quip - I thought you would recognize it.

I think he’s capable of being wrong, and not an expert in virology.

So when you said “As a bonus, it gives them an excuse to be racist against Asian Americans”, you weren’t serious. Cool, cool, cool.

No, I didn’t recognize you were joking. Just the other day you labeled me as someone who doesn’t care for the free speech of others, so I’m not really sure when you are being judgmental, or joking.

 

[J-DONK]

Is Jon Stewart really racist?

The irony of MT1`5 on this subject.

This is Jon Stewart on his podcast that just dropped.

“My bigger problem with that was, I thought it was a pretty good bit that expressed kind of how I felt, and the two things that came out of it were, I’m racist against Asian people, and how dare I align myself with the alt-right.”

Let's define Lab Leak, that theory is simple stats that a virus from the Wuhan lab escaped into the wild. It doesn't talk about intentionality. It also doesn't try to ascertain HOW the virus was created. Those two points MT15 keeps bringing up are extremely disingenuous. Stop trying to create strawmen.

Unless someone can show me were China actually released the raw data, and assisted a real investigation. I have no idea what any study is really telling you. This is everyone giving a best guess off of incomplete data.

If you want to argue it's a conspiracy theory. Explain what these guys are doing:

'Potential lab incident': FBI director Wray speaks publicly for 1st time on COVID-19 origin

The FBI has assessed that the COVID-19 virus "most likely" came from a Chinese lab.

abcnews.go.com

"The FBI has for quite some time now assessed that the origins of the pandemic are most likely a potential lab incident in Wuhan,"

Edit to add: I think unless zoonotic can be prove the biggest takeaway should be that America doesn't aid, nor fund this kind of research. If it absolutely needs to be done in special cases, it has to happen in American labs with strict safety standards.

China's lax safety standards, and obfuscation into an investigation should disqualify them as a partner in this research. We should also be prepared for China to weaponize these kind of viruses in the future.

 

[MT15]

So when you said “As a bonus, it gives them an excuse to be racist against Asian Americans”, you weren’t serious. Cool, cool, cool.

No, I didn’t recognize you were joking. Just the other day you labeled me as someone who doesn’t care for the free speech of others, so I’m not really sure when you are being judgmental, or joking.

So, it’s a good thing you’re above personal attacks, el. I’ve been compared to a Falcon fan and called judgmental within 24 hours. Lol.

 

[MT15]

The irony of MT1`5 on this subject.

This is Jon Stewart on his podcast that just dropped.



Let's define Lab Leak, that theory is simple stats that a virus from the Wuhan lab escaped into the wild. It doesn't talk about intentionality. It also doesn't try to ascertain HOW the virus was created. Those two points MT15 keeps bringing up are extremely disingenuous. Stop trying to create strawmen.

Unless someone can show me were China actually released the raw data, and assisted a real investigation. I have no idea what any study is really telling you. This is everyone giving a best guess off of incomplete data.

If you want to argue it's a conspiracy theory. Explain what these guys are doing:

'Potential lab incident': FBI director Wray speaks publicly for 1st time on COVID-19 origin

The FBI has assessed that the COVID-19 virus "most likely" came from a Chinese lab.

abcnews.go.com

Edit to add: I think unless zoonotic can be prove the biggest takeaway should be that America doesn't aid, nor fund this kind of research. If it absolutely needs to be done in special cases, it has to happen in American labs with strict safety standards.

China's lax safety standards, and obfuscation into an investigation should disqualify them as a partner in this research. We should also be prepared for China to weaponize these kind of viruses in the future.

So, I never even listened to Stewart on this subject, and was unaware there was a kerfuffle with him.

What I am going from is that genetic studies on the actual virus show that it hasn’t been artificially manipulated. This is the gold standard of proof as far as I’m concerned. This is the judgement of people who are the subject matter experts.

We have multiple cases of novel human viruses jumping from animals to people. It’s the norm.

You will have to explain how maintaining that I believe what I read is “disingenuous”.

What you guys keep posting is opinions from lay people and “intelligence” findings. Not virologists. What I don’t get is how people can put so much faith in “low confidence” intelligence, in this case, from the very agencies that are ridiculed in so many other cases. If I’m not mistaken, the Steele Dossier was assessed as “low confidence”.

I don’t have a problem with your last two paragraphs at all. These agencies should continue their investigations. I just think it serves no good to prematurely declare that this virus was likely a lab leak, which would be a completely unique and devastating conclusion, when we’re not at all sure and there is actual genetic evidence that this virus came to humans the same way all novel viruses have in the past.

 

[el caliente]

So, it’s a good thing you’re above personal attacks, el. I’ve been compared to a Falcon fan and called judgmental within 24 hours. Lol.

I’ll give you the judgmental part.