What does MAGA actually mean? (1 Viewer)

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    bird

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    I have been thinking about this question and have come to some conclusions as well as some observations and opinions.

    We have talked about “voting against their interests”. This implies two things. The first is that people are stupid as to what their interests are and we have to tell them in order to bring them into the light. This is false. People have multiple interests and those interests are arranged via belief systems in their minds, both consciously and subconsciously. The second is that what we deem as most important in terms of interests may or may not be important to others.

    We have seen in the last election that “the economy” is far too complex a system to make simplistic generalizations such as “why can’t people see that the economy is good?”. The complexity of the interactions makes statements like this null and void. The reality is, as noted by others, that economic measures do not measure the impacts and shifts on a personal level. This particularly applies to the personal level of those who are not wealthy. Wealth is insulated from the vagaries of movements within the economy. The left failed and has failed to note this for the last 60+ years. Since the oil shock of the ‘70’s and the rise of Reagan agitprop about the economy has papered over the shifts caused by globalization, financialization and technology/automation. These three forces much more than anything else have impacted labor on a scale never seen before. While creative destruction in the past eliminated certain jobs/tasks performed by human labor the technologies that emerged created far larger opportunities for employment. This is no longer the case.

    Beyond these comments we can note that racism, misogyny and homo-, transphobia also played a large role. This can be seen by shifts that seem to be in opposition in terms of voting. Large percentages of Latino and Black males voted for Trump due, imo, do the unwillingness to accept either a woman holding the office of president and/or deity prohibitions regarding sex. That DEI is supposed to help advance the economic fortunes of those same voters was deemed far less important.

    MAGA is, imo, a smokescreen and political economic plan to transfer large amounts of wealth upward by using emotional stimuli that appeals to various groups in various ways. It appeals to White men because DEI will be eliminated. It appeals to some minority males because they are cis-gender. It appeals to some males because women should not hold positions of authority. In other words it makes excellent use of “the other” depending upon the audience. Trump himself is incapable of creating a deeply thought out philosophy on such a scale. This is evidenced by his defeat in 2020. Imo, enough political economy philosophers saw their opportunity to cause a tectonic shift in American society and knew that Trump would be useful for this. They also knew that the Republican Party would happily go along with the concepts. In point of opinion, it would behoove us to track the money as well as the contacts between Republican politicians and various well known and less well known think tanks and individuals/groups dedicated to imposing a two-tier political economy. Knowing your enemy is important.

    While I have quasi-seriously talked about “Bird’s theorem” it is much more likely that stupidity and irrationality go hand in hand.

    I welcome your comments.
     
    At its core, much of the political polarization can be traced back to fear—specifically, fear of rapid and unfamiliar change. The past six decades have seen social, economic, and technological transformations that have upended traditional ways of life. Unlike the more gradual changes of the industrial era, today’s shifts occur so quickly that the stability of a lifelong career is increasingly rare. This uncertainty breeds a longing for the simplicity and predictability of the past

    Compounding this sense of insecurity is a significant divide between the highly educated and those with only a high school education or less. Many in the latter group have experienced an educational system that emphasizes rote learning over critical inquiry, limiting exposure to broader perspectives. As a result, their understanding of the world can become quite insular, deepening the disconnect between them and those who engage more fully with global trends and ideas.

    It’s important to acknowledge that this dynamic isn’t confined solely to men. Some women also favor traditional roles that prioritize domestic responsibilities over broader societal engagement. Although these views are less common, they contribute to the overall trend where a more limited worldview can widen the gap between personal reality and the complex, rapidly evolving external world.
     
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    At its core, much of the political polarization can be traced back to fear—specifically, fear of rapid and unfamiliar change. The past six decades have seen social, economic, and technological transformations that have upended traditional ways of life. Unlike the more gradual changes of the industrial era, today’s shifts occur so quickly that the stability of a lifelong career is increasingly rare. This uncertainty breeds a longing for the simplicity and predictability of the past

    Compounding this sense of insecurity is a significant divide between the highly educated and those with only a high school education or less. Many in the latter group have experienced an educational system that emphasizes rote learning over critical inquiry, limiting exposure to broader perspectives. As a result, their understanding of the world can become quite insular, deepening the disconnect between them and those who engage more fully with global trends and ideas.

    It’s important to acknowledge that this dynamic isn’t confined solely to men. Some women also favor traditional roles that prioritize domestic responsibilities over broader societal engagement. Although these views are less common, they contribute to the overall trend where a more limited worldview can widen the gap between personal reality and the complex, rapidly evolving external world.
    Fear is an extremely strong driver for many, even, imo, most people. Uncertainty is fear. Did I make the right choice? I should have done this, not that.

    Globalization, financialization and technology/automation impact heavily in the U.S. due to the tendency buttressed by societal norms of men to define themselves by what they do for a job.

    This goes back to an idea that I originally got from Parke Godwin’s Waiting for the Galactic Bus. One character says to another (they are both aliens) when describing humans on Earth: “I would say they are technologically brilliant, emotionally primitive and not a few of them quite mad.” The human brain does not and possibly cannot evolve fast enough to keep up with the impact of technology. Granted younger generations do know how to use technology better or easier but that is not the same as the psychological impact.
     
    It basically means “I am a wannabe Nazi and i enjoy voting for like minded Nazis.. but i dont want to SAY i am a Nazi so i call myself Maga .”
    There is truth to that but the people behind the scenes use that to paper over their goal of wealth/power transfer upward.
     
    20 years from now, MAGA will be studied and debated to infinity. How could the greatest nation on earth succumb to this movement in mass?

    And most of MAGA are cheering on the bulldozers tearing down norms and rules that have held us together for centuries.
     
    20 years from now, MAGA will be studied and debated to infinity. How could the greatest nation on earth succumb to this movement in mass?

    And most of MAGA are cheering on the bulldozers tearing down norms and rules that have held us together for centuries.
    Richard Kreitner’s book Break It Up: Secession, Division and the Secret History of America’s Imperfect Union goes into the concept that there has never been a “United” States (my impression from the book). Different regions of the country and different groups in the country have at various times called for dissolution of the country.

    Perhaps it is time to really examine the mess that the American people keep seeming to willingly prolong and fork up.
     
    For the rank and file MAGA voter, it means to "own the libs" at any cost. For MAGA leaders, it means to throw a bunch of stuff at the wall to distract and divide while doing a bunch of underhanded stuff behind the scenes to make a few people rich, even if it destroys the US for a while.
     
    I thought that this could go here…

     
    For the rank and file MAGA voter, it means to "own the libs" at any cost. For MAGA leaders, it means to throw a bunch of stuff at the wall to distract and divide while doing a bunch of underhanded stuff behind the scenes to make a few people rich, even if it destroys the US for a while.
    Indeed, hatred and fear seem to be the twin drivers of the base. I think that if drilling down in the psyche were possible we would see fear of changing demographics is critical to their response. The manipulation by wealth/power of the base is unsurprising.

    I would also not be shocked if Musk instigates a coup thereby removing Trump and installing Vance. I think Vance is much more a true believer due to his religionist belief structure whereas Trump is driven by his personal grievances.
     
    MAGA has it's roots in the Jim Crow era South, but it came to more prominence when Obama was elected president. Remember the "Tea Party?" The only reason it came about was because how dare a black man get elected president in our righteous christian nation?
     
    MAGA has it's roots in the Jim Crow era South, but it came to more prominence when Obama was elected president. Remember the "Tea Party?" The only reason it came about was because how dare a black man get elected president in our righteous christian nation?
    That is for damn sure. Much of the White grievance is precisely due to a Black man being in the White House.
     
    Some thoughts:

    We have talked about “voting against their interests”. This implies two things. The first is that people are stupid as to what their interests are and we have to tell them in order to bring them into the light. This is false. People have multiple interests and those interests are arranged via belief systems in their minds, both consciously and subconsciously. The second is that what we deem as most important in terms of interests may or may not be important to others.
    So I don't think it's entirely fair to say those are the necessary implications, or that they're necessarily false. I think it's more complex than that. Generally, when we talk about people "voting against their interests", we may, for example, be referring to the outcome attributable in part to their vote being counter to their expressed interests. A contemporary example of that would be "Arab Americans for TrumpPeace". In that instance, it's not that they didn't know what their interests were, but they were clearly misled to the point of ignorance as to how Trump would further those interests.

    We might also be talking about the outcome being counter to what an objective observer would consider to be in their best interests, rather than referring to what they themselves might cite, or subconsciously hold, as their interests. (And in that instance, there's also the possibility of the observer confusing their own subjective views with objectivity of course; yes, I am aware this could apply to me!).

    If we accept that there are objective outcomes to something, and that if an individual were to consider their own situation objectively they would agree with that, then we can reasonably say that some people will be voting subjectively, against their objectively best interests, and that being the case, it's reasonable to say that enabling those people to consider their situations objectively might help. I wouldn't phrase that as "people are stupid as to what their interests are and we have to tell them," because it's clearly more complex than that (if only we could just say, "hey, you, being racist is bad and isn't actually in your best interests!"), but I do think there is an important element of communication here that shouldn't be neglected.

    But I'd also emphasise "some people". I think we're talking about many different groups of people here, including people who are quite willing to deliberately act against what could be seen as their own best interests to further a subjectively held interest. Bringing us on to:

    MAGA is, imo, a smokescreen and political economic plan to transfer large amounts of wealth upward by using emotional stimuli that appeals to various groups in various ways. It appeals to White men because DEI will be eliminated. It appeals to some minority males because they are cis-gender. It appeals to some males because women should not hold positions of authority. In other words it makes excellent use of “the other” depending upon the audience.
    I think it's reasonable to argue that is one of the main drivers of the political movement behind MAGA. I think there's two key components in that sense; the current manifestation of prejudice, racism, and cynical populism, and the exploitation and fueling of that to seize power and wealth for a group of individuals.

    I also think it's reasonable to argue that most of the people voting for it are voting against their best interests accordingly.

    And it's then reasonable to ask, "How, why, and why aren't efforts to prevent that working?"

    I think one of the key problems of the left - and the current political environment in the UK is reflective of this as well - is adopting the populist framing of the right and attempting to compete with them on it. The main problem being, it doesn't work. If we take immigration for example, the current Labour government is adopting the framing of the right and saying, "We agree immigration is a major problem, and we'll fix it!" But they also know that 'fixing' it would actually make other key things - the economy and healthcare, for example, which depend on migrant workers - worse. So they won't, and indeed can't, 'fix' it. What they actually achieve is boosting their opponents' framing, and enabling them to say, "Everyone agrees it's the biggest problem, and they won't fix it! But we will!"

    So to put that simply, one problem is treating populism as something which can be addressed by patronising it. Doesn't work. Cannot work.

    That happens, I think, because there's a notion that winning power means listening to people - fair enough - and then agreeing with them on their key issues regardless of what those are, or, at least, pretending to agree with them (where 'them' is the key demographics identified as necessary to secure victory), and the problem with that is that it's not only wrong, it leads to, essentially, a form of mob rule.

    It's wrong because it assumes that dialogue and debate can't exist and can't change perspectives. This is reinforced by mispresenting it as "ignoring people's concerns and telling them what to think".

    It's a form of mob rule, because it effectively means the key driver of political movements is what a significant number of people are convinced of, regardless of whether it's true or not, with opposition intimidated into falling in line with that. But arguably it's not really mob rule, because the power there ultimately lies in who is able to convince the mob of what, which is where the exploitation comes in. Power is ultimately handed to the manipulator of the mob.

    So that's a battle on two, complementary, fronts; challenging false, damaging, narratives from being established for exploitation before it ever gets to policies and voting, and having the integrity and courage to challenge those narratives politically as well.

    At the same time, I would say the other failing of opposition parties is, and I'm speaking generally on an international basis here, failing to recognise and adequately address genuine, objectively valid, concerns (or, debatably, failing to be seen to do so). There are clearly a lot of people who are struggling in terms of employment, housing, healthcare, etc. To get the right message across to those people requires, preferably, bold, clear, policies that can be seen as something that will deliver significant change (the less preferable alternative is populist rhetoric that won't deliver anything of the sort but still conveys the perception that it might). Without that, the message that risks coming across is, "We're better than them, you've never had it so good regardless of how you feel, so suck it up." That creates an atmosphere ripe for populist exploitation to take root; people who feel the system is never going to work for them are less likely to care about warnings about blowing up the system, for example.

    To be clear, as I've said on other threads, I don't think refusing to vote for the best option when the worst option is clearly terrible is justifiable. I can still see why some people do it regardless.

    So to sum up as succinctly as possible, the way I currently see it is that MAGA means a political movement that seeks power and wealth has succeeded in exploiting and stoking prejudice and racism by establishing a culture that defines populist narratives and intimidates opposition to them, both within and without the movement.
     
    To me, it's exactly what Trump is doing now. This was his vision. He has been open about it even before he jumped into politics. The Oprah interview from the 90's for example. He's saying the exact things he's saying now and was applauded for it. Now, he is a nazi and a dictator to the left. The democratic party is in a tailspin. All of the woke agenda hasn't panned out for them. They have zero leadership. The panic has set in for democrats. I like the direction we're in. We shall see if it pans out.
     
    The power of right wing propoganda is being ignored in this conversation. It's 75% of what MAGA is ... a false reality that's believed by its supporters
    I don't think it's being ignored, is it? When I was talking about the populist framing of the right and fueling prejudice, racism and cynical populism, propaganda is how the framing is pushed and how prejudice is stoked.
     

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