Discussion of rights — natural, societal, etc. (1 Viewer)

[V Chip]

This deserves its own thread. If other posts can be moved here or copied here that would be helpful.

Are there such things as “natural” or “god-given” rights? Which rights would qualify? Which rights that are very common wouldn't? Who/what grants or enforces such rights?

 

[JRad]

Whew, that‘s a tough one. On a certain level, I’m not sure anyone is “rightfully” owed anything by life. But that’s a very pedantic way of looking at ”natural rights”

Going more in the spirit of the thread: food, water, shelter, and a dog seem like the obvious choices. I think you start getting more heavily into opinions at that point. Personally, I think if you “need“ it live, it should be a right* - food, clean water, shelter, healthcare, a dog and a safety net.

 

[SystemShock]

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in....

 

[Paul]

This deserves its own thread. If other posts can be moved here or copied here that would be helpful.

Are there such things as “natural” or “god-given” rights? Which rights would qualify? Which rights that are very common wouldn't? Who/what grants or enforces such rights?

Any so called right that requires money or requires another human to provide help or support is not necessarily a right.

Rights are free and do not require others to pitch in or act in a negative or positive manner.

Rights do not infringe the right of others.

 

[MT15]

So name them.

 

[Paul]

So name them.

Look up the Bill of Rights.

Are you trying to come up with a basic human right that costs money? If the right costs money it requires wealth created by someone else.

 

[Dragon]

Any so called right that requires money or requires another human to provide help or support is not necessarily a right.

Rights are free and do not require others to pitch in or act in a negative or positive manner.

Rights do not infringe the right of others.

Wrong! No man or woman is an island and money is no holy grail.

You may not be a religious man but this quote from the bible reflects my oppinion on what basic human rights should be

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

We all need each other. We are interconnected and never know when our neighbor will be the one to save our own behind. A person housed, fed, clothed, educated and working will contribute to the common good of all be it as a supermarked cleck or nurse during Covid-19 or as an doctor or scientist. Everybody is needed and every person "lost" is detrimental to all of society.

 

[SystemShock]

Look up the Bill of Rights.

Look up what it cost for the Bill of Rights to be enacted, and what it costs to keep it the law of the land.

 

[Paul]

Look up what it cost for the Bill of Rights to be enacted, and what it costs to keep it the law of the land.

It costs money to enforce laws. There is a need for a police force and tribunals. However, basic rights do not cost money. The laws and the rights are different entities. For example to say medical care is a right is wrong because medical care costs money. However, the right to free speech costs no money.

 

[Paul]

Wrong! No man or woman is an island and money is no holy grail.

You may not be a religious man but this quote from the bible reflects my oppinion on what basic human rights should be



We all need each other. We are interconnected and never know when our neighbor will be the one to save our own behind. A person housed, fed, clothed, educated and working will contribute to the common good of all be it as a supermarked cleck or nurse during Covid-19 or as an doctor or scientist. Everybody is needed and every person "lost" is detrimental to all of society.

I do not disagree with your views.. It is desirable to provide for those in need however, the idea that I should give shelter, cash, and food to others is a voluntary act and not a right of the recipient.

The idea that giving to others is the justification of our existence only works on a voluntary basis. Otherwise, it is tyranny. The need of others is not the mandatory moral purpose of our existence. The rights of others do not require us to make sacrifices for them.

 

[SystemShock]

A right is a human concept, very much a social construct, something societies agree to honor for every individual in that society, or even outside of that society, as in the concept of universal human rights.

There is no such thing as natural rights. Nature doesn't grant rights. Period.

As for God given rights... this is a concept that AFAIK comes from the idea that kings are preordained by a god to be kings since before they we born.

Any claim to a divine or god-given right has 4 major hurdles to clear:
1. prove that particular god exists
2. prove that particular god granted such right
3. the exercising of such right
4. The enforcement of such right universally.

That's true for any religion, not just the Abrahamic religions. A side note, I prefer to use the term Abrahamic over Judaeo-Christian; the latter conveniently leaves out Islam.

I am not even going to bother with #1 or #2, since #3 and #4 already have major hurdles to clear on their own.

When you read the Abrahamic texts, the first hurdle god-given rights encounter is that any right that could be granted by god only applies to males, not females.

In Genesis 1:26, Yahweh grants man dominion over birds, fish, livestock, and wild animals, but then he taketh back when he kicks Adam and Eve out of Eden. Side note: would there have been livestock or wild animals in Eden? They were all living in vegan harmony.

If you keep reading, Yahweh gives man mostly rules, things one must do, things one mustn't do, and the punishment you'll get if you don't do the things you must do and/or do the things you musn't do. An argument can be made that there are things that Yahweh says men can do, and therefore those are God-given rights, but, we immediately hit a wall in Exodus, because it spells the rights masters have over slaves: where the master can buy them, how much the master can beat them... but also, an argument can be made that Yahweh grants slaves some rights in Colossians, as he commands slave masters to treat slaves "justly and fairly", but then, when you are property that can be forced to labor and be beaten within an inch of death, what exactly would be considered "just and fair"?

What happens when your god-given right is infringed upon? Could the rights granted by an all powerful metaphysical being that has dominion over everything created and yet to be created be infringed upon?

Let's take as example the right to life, which is a pervasive concept among Christian sects. Would there be miscarriages at all? Stillborn? One has to be born to exercise one's right to life, so there shouldn't be miscarriages or stillborn at all, ever, if God himself granted every human being the right to life.

 

[SystemShock]

It costs money to enforce laws. There is a need for a police force and tribunals. However, basic rights do not cost money. The laws and the rights are different entities. For example to say medical care is a right is wrong because medical care costs money. However, the right to free speech costs no money.

It cost money, time, and lives to even be in a position to enact laws. Laws give you your rights. Without laws, you have no rights. Heck, the paper and ink used to write down the Bill of Rights cost money.

But as usual, you came up with a fallacious argument you think sounds good, and you are going to beat it to death no matter how many times your argument is proven fallacious.

 

[bdb13]

Natural rights are a theoretical concept. Theoretically, I believe in them.. but it's merely a concept and in practice it is pretty obvious imo that they do not actually exist in any sort of tangible manner.

 

[Paul]

It cost money, time, and lives to even be in a position to enact laws. Laws give you your rights. Without laws, you have no rights. Heck, the paper and ink used to write down the Bill of Rights cost money.

But as usual, you came up with a fallacious argument you think sounds good, and you are going to beat it to death no matter how many times your argument is proven fallacious.

Laws are written to protect the weak from predators. That is the purpose of the law. Natural rights exist outside the law. You do not need a law for free speech. Speech is a fundamental freedom that does not need a law to be created.

 

[V Chip]

Natural rights exist outside the law. You do not need a law for free speech. Speech is a fundamental freedom that does not need a law to be created.

Who/what grants you that right, and how is it enforced?

 

[SystemShock]

Laws are written to protect the weak from predators. That is the purpose of the law.

No. Laws are simply the rules societies live by. Some laws protect people in disadvantageous positions, but certainly it isn't the sole purpose of the law.

Natural rights exist outside the law.

No, they don't. Not outside the law, not inside the law, not in a box, not with a fox....

You do not need a law for free speech. Speech is a fundamental freedom that does not need a law to be created.

You are confusing the ability to speak with speech.

 

[cuddlemonkey]

Look up the Bill of Rights.

Are you trying to come up with a basic human right that costs money? If the right costs money it requires wealth created by someone else.

The Bill of Rights costs money and compels people to do things. Perhaps you should come up with a new example.

 

[Paul]

The Bill of Rights costs money and compels people to do things. Perhaps you should come up with a new example.

Nope:

Amendment I​

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The above costs no money.

Please find which rights in the Bill of Rights requires dollars:

Bill of Rights, U.S. Constitution, constitutional amendments, civil liberties, American history, individual rights, legal protections

The Bill of Rights is a founding documents written by James Madison. It makes up the first ten amendments to the Constitution including freedom of speech and due process.

billofrightsinstitute.org