I don’t really expect a whole lot of participation in this thread. But after having been repeatedly called an authoritarian by one member here who obviously doesn’t understand the term, I came across this article and thread on the subject. I thought it would be good to offer this thread as an educational service. It was helpful to me to distill my thoughts on the subject.
Authoritarianism (1 Viewer)
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bdb13
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Imo I think it largely explains why you see things like the refusal to call a spade a spade in regards to election 2020/January 6th.. admitting that it was an attempted coup paired with an insurrection enabled by their guy is beyond the scope of what they can defend and point to an equivalency and they know it.. they know what happened but they won't acknowledge it because it was committed on behalf of them and against the (evil) Democrats .. and therefore the strategy is to admit nothing and to spin the issue until you're arguing about some other bullshirt.
coldseat
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A good explanation as to why MAGA Republicans and Evangelical Christians are so devoid of morality.
It’s sad to observe that this line of reasoning means that morality for some people does not exist per sey as an individual standard, or as an equal standard, as applying to everyone, such as do not kill, do not steal, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
For the authoritarian morality argument, I would add “selfish” as “authoritarian selfish” because you would likely fight against authoritarians if you felt they were harming you, but take a snake like Lil’Donny who appeals to the dark side, promises you your favorite dream or poison, whatever is percieved as “beneficial for me” and you’ll get a third of the country willing to adapt their morals if personal benefit is percieved.
LA - L.A.
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It's been a long time since Political Science 101, so I'm a little fuzzy on the exact terminology. When it comes to morality and values, there's two different sources of both. There's the internal source which means values and morals that come from within the person. Then there's the external source, which obviously means morals and values that come from other people.
Most people tend to mostly operate from one mode or the other. Some people tend to get what they value and what they believe is right from within themselves. People who are like this will consistently follow their values and morals regardless of what people around them are doing, or what the rules and laws are.
Some people rely on other people telling them what to value and what is right and wrong. These people will strongly adhere to whatever sense of value and morality the people they follow have, and what the prevailing laws and rules are. These people end up reflecting whoever they choose to follow. If they follow people who have a consistent sense of values and morality, then they will be consistent as well. If they follow people who are hypocritically self-serving in applying their values and morals, then these external driven people will also been hypocritically self-serving in applying their values and morals.
People who follow authoritarians are going to have authoritarian values and morals. Authoritarianism values and morality is exclusively might makes right. That is the only thing authoritarians are consistent about. Whatever the most powerful person says is valuable and moral in the moment is what's valuable and moral, until the most powerful changes their mind or someone more powerful comes along and changes what is valuable and moral.
Historically, most people operate from an external sense of values and morals. That's why the Stanford prison experiment and similar experiments turn out how they do. Change the values and morals of their social and legal environment and they will do whatever the new environment allows and condones.
Most people tend to mostly operate from one mode or the other. Some people tend to get what they value and what they believe is right from within themselves. People who are like this will consistently follow their values and morals regardless of what people around them are doing, or what the rules and laws are.
Some people rely on other people telling them what to value and what is right and wrong. These people will strongly adhere to whatever sense of value and morality the people they follow have, and what the prevailing laws and rules are. These people end up reflecting whoever they choose to follow. If they follow people who have a consistent sense of values and morality, then they will be consistent as well. If they follow people who are hypocritically self-serving in applying their values and morals, then these external driven people will also been hypocritically self-serving in applying their values and morals.
People who follow authoritarians are going to have authoritarian values and morals. Authoritarianism values and morality is exclusively might makes right. That is the only thing authoritarians are consistent about. Whatever the most powerful person says is valuable and moral in the moment is what's valuable and moral, until the most powerful changes their mind or someone more powerful comes along and changes what is valuable and moral.
Historically, most people operate from an external sense of values and morals. That's why the Stanford prison experiment and similar experiments turn out how they do. Change the values and morals of their social and legal environment and they will do whatever the new environment allows and condones.
Lapaz
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So the theory is that Trump is god's voice and anything he says and does is moral and right. I wonder why Biden couldn't be viewed as the god authority? He is our current leader. This is why Trump supporters are cultists, so the only way to get through to them is using the methods used to extract people from cults. We need to study every case of people that have seen the light. For example, there was an op-ed this morning on MSNBC penned by Jim Young titled "I voted for Trump - twice. Liz Cheney's book and DOJ Jan 6 indictment changed my mind". The problem is that he was turned off by 6 JAN, before he even read Cheney's book. He was already out of the cult after 6 JAN, but evidently the cult gained some new recruits after 6 JAN, otherwise Trump wouldn't be doing so well in the primaries. I've heard that a lot of people got out of the cult after 6 JAN, so the question is how is the cult growing?
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MT15
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I’m not sure it is. I don’t think garnering 60-70% of a primary now when he had 90-95% approval of the GOP before Jan 6 indicates growth. I would have to look up turnout numbers and compare to previous R primaries - in closed primary states. I would have to look up the number of people who identify as Rs now versus in Nov 2020. When I get more time I may do that.
Lapaz
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If the cult isn't growing, how is it possible that polls suggest he would beat Biden? I understand that people may have their own issues/concerns with Biden, but anyone outside the cult would realize that Trump is dangerous to our freedom, and practically anyone is better than Trump. Is it that they have extracted themselves from the cult sufficiently to realize that Trump isn't a god, but will not extract themselves from their tribe, even if the vast majority of their tribe backs the cult leader?
DaveXA
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That's because Biden is slowly bleeding support. The border mess, fragile economy, and wishy washy handling of the Israel-Gaza conflict are hurting his numbers. The question I guess is whether Biden is losing support at a faster rate than Trump. I don't know, but something to consider.
Lapaz
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I understand those issues with Biden, but those are policy issues, and I could argue a reasonable case in favor of Biden on those that you mentioned, but then there is the existential threat that is Trump, for which there is no reasonable case to be made. I think only cult members can put those on the same plane to justify voting for Trump, which makes me think that the cult must be growing. By the way, I haven't seen the stats, but I know many Democrats and independents voted in the primaries for Haley, and in closed primaries, some changed their registration to vote against Trump, so I think it is misleading to judge the size of the cult by the percentages that Trump got in the primaries. It is the general election polls that suggest the cult may have grown. Cult intervention specialists need to get to work.
DaveXA
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Yeah, I don't disagree. I'm just worried that somehow Biden is gonna fork this up and Trump somehow wins the election. For all the criticism and problems Trump has, he still has a large segment of the population (30-35%) who will vote for him even if he shoots someone on the street on live TV. If anything, all these cases against him are actually feeding their narrative that the Democrats and deep state are out to get him.
I mean, I want Trump to lose in a bad way, but it's not a foregone conclusion at all, which is shocking to me.
Lapaz
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It truly is shocking that Trump still has a shot! Another huge concern is the impact of no-labels or the Libertarian party. Imagine if all other parties combined to draw 30% of the vote, and both Trump and Biden get 35%, then Trump would win via either the electoral college or a vote of the states. We badly need Ranked Choice Voting, because I think Biden would beat Trump with RCV, and in almost all cases, the extremists would not win in Ranked Choice Voting!
The deep state narrative is such nonsense. The deep state consists almost exclusively of professionals that care about doing their jobs apolitically. The narrative needs to be that if you break laws in an unprecedented manner, you should expect the state to prosecute you in an unprecedented manner. You shouldn't expect the state to just give up because you've broken too many laws.
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MT15
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I don’t believe most of the polls these days. They are almost always overestimating R support.
Lapaz
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I hope you're right. I know pollsters are struggling to figure out how to poll in this post-landline and Trumpian era. In 2016 the polls overestimated Democratic support in some critical states, then got it about right in 2020, and then seem to have slightly overcorrected recently. The recent special elections seem to be overestimating R support, so that may be true. That is the best hope, but we also know that the electoral college gives Republicans an edge, so Democrats have to win the key battleground states, and those are polling badly for Biden. It's not a good place to be to have to hope that the pollsters are still getting it wrong.
What I remind the sane voters is that you can pragmatically, only vote for the sane patriotic candidate, not the hair on fire, psycho, that is unless the goal is to see the country come apart at the seams.
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