DOJ dropping criminal case against Gen Flynn (UPDATE: DC Cir. dismisses case) (4 Viewers)

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    N.O.Bronco said:
    - Flynn knowingly lied to the FBI, even when the FBI gave him every opportunity by literally reading the transcript of his call to him and asking him if he said those words.
    Click to expand...

    Have you got a cite for that? I think it would be great if you could show that happened by linking us to the original 302. Maybe you have it, because the FBI can't seem to put their hands on it.
     
    Beach Friends said:
    Have you got a cite for that? I think it would be great if you could show that happened by linking us to the original 302. Maybe you have it, because the FBI can't seem to put their hands on it.
    Click to expand...
    Not sure what magical alchemy you think that will produce when Flynn already pled guilty to over a dozen instances of lying about the calls he made, that were recorded, that the court had introduced as evidence and Flynn agreed were factual. Where he also confirmed and reconfirmed his confidence in his guilty please and his counsel.

    Where:

    • December 1, 2017: Mike Flynn pled guilty before Judge Rudolph Contreras to lying in a January 24, 2017 FBI interview. In his plea allocution, Flynn admitted:
      • He lied about several conversations with Sergey Kislyak about sanctions
      • He lied about several conversations with Kislyak about an attempt to undermine an Obama effort at the UN
      • He lied about whether his company knew that it was working for the government of Turkey and about whether senior officials from Turkey were overseeing that contract
      • He was satisfied with the services his attorneys had provided
      • No other threats or promises were made to him except what was in the plea agreement
    • December 18, 2018: Mike Flynn reallocuted his guilty plea before Judge Emmet Sullivan to lying in a January 24, 2017 FBI interview. In his plea allocution, Flynn admitted:
      • He lied about several conversations with Sergey Kislyak about sanctions
      • He lied about several conversations with Kislyak about an attempt to undermine an Obama effort at the UN
      • He lied about whether his company knew that it was working for the government of Turkey and about whether senior officials from Turkey were overseeing that contract
      • He was satisfied with the services his attorneys had provided
      • He did not want a Curcio counsel appointed to give him a second opinion on pleading guilty
      • He did not want to challenge the circumstances of his January 24, 2017 interview and understood by pleading guilty he was giving up his right to do so permanently
      • He did not want to withdraw his plea having learned that Peter Strzok and others were investigated for misconduct
      • During his interview with the FBI, he was aware that lying to the FBI was a federal crime
    June 26, 2018: Mike Flynn testified to an EDVA grand jury, among other things, that “from the beginning,” his 2016 consulting project “was always on behalf of elements within the Turkish government,” he and Bijan Kian would “always talk about Gulen as sort of a sharp point” in relations between Turkey and the US as part of the project (though there was some discussion about business climate), and he and his partner “didn’t have any conversations about” a November 8, 2016 op-ed published under his name until “Bijan [] sent me a draft of it a couple of days prior, maybe about a week prior.” The statements conflict with a FARA filing submitted under Flynn’s name.​
    ​
    www.emptywheel.net

    The Legal Posture of the Flynn Case: Emmet Sullivan Has Up to Six Pending Decisions, Not One - emptywheel

    Many, perhaps most, people who've commented in the last week have noted that Emmet Sullivan has the prerogative whether to accept DOJ's motion or not. It's true he has that authority. But he actually has up to six different decisions pending, including fully briefed sentencing memoranda and...
    www.emptywheel.net www.emptywheel.net

    There is nothing here besides the erosion of the rule of law by an illiberal administration once again tearing down the walls of democracy for self serving needs. And, of course, the same predictable race by the same predictable sect of the conservative population rushing to tie their hair back to swallow down the latest Seth Rich, Uranium One, Birtherism, Benghazi, Her Emails nonsense from the same sources that made you all look a fool a hundred times over but promises to have the goods this time.
     
    N.O.Bronco said:
    Not sure what magical alchemy you think that will produce when Flynn already pled guilty to over a dozen instances of lying about the calls he made, that were recorded, that the court had introduced as evidence and Flynn agreed were factual. Where he also confirmed and reconfirmed his confidence in his guilty please and his counsel.

    Where:

    • December 1, 2017: Mike Flynn pled guilty before Judge Rudolph Contreras to lying in a January 24, 2017 FBI interview. In his plea allocution, Flynn admitted:
      • He lied about several conversations with Sergey Kislyak about sanctions
      • He lied about several conversations with Kislyak about an attempt to undermine an Obama effort at the UN
      • He lied about whether his company knew that it was working for the government of Turkey and about whether senior officials from Turkey were overseeing that contract
      • He was satisfied with the services his attorneys had provided
      • No other threats or promises were made to him except what was in the plea agreement
    • December 18, 2018: Mike Flynn reallocuted his guilty plea before Judge Emmet Sullivan to lying in a January 24, 2017 FBI interview. In his plea allocution, Flynn admitted:
      • He lied about several conversations with Sergey Kislyak about sanctions
      • He lied about several conversations with Kislyak about an attempt to undermine an Obama effort at the UN
      • He lied about whether his company knew that it was working for the government of Turkey and about whether senior officials from Turkey were overseeing that contract
      • He was satisfied with the services his attorneys had provided
      • He did not want a Curcio counsel appointed to give him a second opinion on pleading guilty
      • He did not want to challenge the circumstances of his January 24, 2017 interview and understood by pleading guilty he was giving up his right to do so permanently
      • He did not want to withdraw his plea having learned that Peter Strzok and others were investigated for misconduct
      • During his interview with the FBI, he was aware that lying to the FBI was a federal crime
    June 26, 2018: Mike Flynn testified to an EDVA grand jury, among other things, that “from the beginning,” his 2016 consulting project “was always on behalf of elements within the Turkish government,” he and Bijan Kian would “always talk about Gulen as sort of a sharp point” in relations between Turkey and the US as part of the project (though there was some discussion about business climate), and he and his partner “didn’t have any conversations about” a November 8, 2016 op-ed published under his name until “Bijan [] sent me a draft of it a couple of days prior, maybe about a week prior.” The statements conflict with a FARA filing submitted under Flynn’s name.​
    ​
    www.emptywheel.net

    The Legal Posture of the Flynn Case: Emmet Sullivan Has Up to Six Pending Decisions, Not One - emptywheel

    Many, perhaps most, people who've commented in the last week have noted that Emmet Sullivan has the prerogative whether to accept DOJ's motion or not. It's true he has that authority. But he actually has up to six different decisions pending, including fully briefed sentencing memoranda and...
    www.emptywheel.net www.emptywheel.net

    There is nothing here besides the erosion of the rule of law by an illiberal administration once again tearing down the walls of democracy for self serving needs. And, of course, the same predictable race by the same predictable sect of the conservative population rushing to tie their hair back to swallow down the latest Seth Rich, Uranium One, Birtherism, Benghazi, Her Emails nonsense from the same sources that made you all look a fool a hundred times over but promises to have the goods this time.
    Click to expand...

    That's a long arse way of saying you can't provide a cite and that you don't give a damn about missing documents.
     
    Beach Friends said:
    That's a long arse way of saying you can't provide a cite and that you don't give a damn about missing documents.
    Click to expand...
    That’s a short way of saying you don’t have any real argument you can stand on so you are digging for technicalities in others’ arguments that neither materially change the key facts of the case but provide you a lazy way to avoid engaging the areas of the other person’s argument you have no answer for.

    Nothing in any version of the 302 is going to materially change the admissions outlined above. Nor alter the fact that Flynn knowingly failed to register as a foreign agent, lied about his conversations, or violated the Logan Act. You’re grasping, and poorly at that.
     
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    N.O.Bronco said:
    Seems the important facts are pretty clear, and DTC has them correct:

    - Flynn knowingly lied to the FBI, even when the FBI gave him every opportunity by literally reading the transcript of his call to him and asking him if he said those words.
    Click to expand...

    Again, what is your source for saying that the FBI agents literally read the transcript to him?

    I seriously have not heard anyone, other than you, claim that happened.

    Do you have a source for that or not?
     
    Beach Friends said:
    Again, what is your source for saying that the FBI agents literally read the transcript to him?

    I seriously have not heard anyone, other than you, claim that happened.

    Do you have a source for that or not?
    Click to expand...
    Still angling with this sealioning game huh?


    You realize you can read the redacted 302 correct?

    Where they ask him oddly specific questions, like, did you ever discuss expulsions(page 10) or tell Kislyak not to escalate the situation(referring to recent sanctions imposed on Russia due to Russian government election interference). Oddly specific examples that only make sense once Flynn admits to the whole picture and it is made aware that the agents had recordings of the calls. Which he later admitted to having lied about several times throughout court proceedings, chronicled in the court documents above, that, essentially, on contextualizing the larger picture as evidence came out, the interviewers appear to have asked him the very things he later admitted to saying multiple times in statements admitting guilt, but lied about at the time. Which really calls into question Flynn’s own competence, because if anyone should have known that calls from the Russian ambassador were bugged, it should have been a former director of the defense intelligence agency...And what’s weird is it is almost like someone warned Trump about this sort of stuff with Flynn. Someone that had experience with him in that very role.

    ...These are the sorts of observations one can put together when your view of something is gained from reading source material and not simply pumped in through a right-wing hackery feeding tube.
     
    Last edited:
    N.O.Bronco said:
    Still angling with this sealioning game huh?


    You realize you can read the redacted 302 correct?

    Where they ask him oddly specific questions, like, did you ever discuss expulsions(page 10) or tell Kislyak not to escalate the situation(referring to recent sanctions imposed on Russia due to Russian government election interference). Oddly specific examples that only make sense once Flynn admits to the whole picture and it is made aware that the agents had recordings of the calls. Which he later admitted to having lied about several times throughout court proceedings, chronicled in the court documents above, that, essentially, on contextualizing the larger picture as evidence came out, the interviewers appear to have asked him the very things he later admitted to saying multiple times in statements admitting guilt, but lied about at the time. Which really calls into question Flynn’s own competence, because if anyone should have known that calls from the Russian ambassador were bugged, it should have been a former director of the defense intelligence agency...And what’s weird is it is almost like someone warned Trump about this sort of stuff with Flynn. Someone that had experience with him in that very role.

    ...These are the sorts of observations one can put together when your view of something is gained from reading source material and not simply pumped in through a right-wing hackery feeding tube.
    Click to expand...

    So you do have the original 302 after all. That's interesting, because a lot of people have been asking for that.
     
    Beach Friends said:
    So you do have the original 302 after all. That's interesting, because a lot of people have been asking for that.
    Click to expand...
    I get the sense you haven’t actually engaged with the source material of this matter all that much?

    I’m very curious what specific parts of those notes you think could be altered that would materially change anything about the facts as Flynn has admitted to them? Specific examples would be helpful?

    I guess the hope is that like all the other smoking guns that weren’t: uranium one, the long form birth certificate, or the Nunez memo, it will make all the pieces come together. Seems unlikely unless you want to explain what I’m not seeing?

    What is not redacted is essentially an interview going over all the things that Flynn later admits to, multiple times, reconfirming again and again, to actually having happened and lying about them.

    So maybe the hope is the alteration scars the FBI for some procedural misconduct and you all are going to try and play that up as total exoneration because you aren’t aware how silly that looks when you simply read what Flynn himself has said and admitted to again and again? That definitely seems like an angle that could happen. But nothing is going to change that he lied, he failed to register as a foreign agent, and that he violated the Logan Act.

    Barr may want to once again chip away at the critical institutions of the American justice system to give his boy Trump a distraction from helping kill 100,000 Americans, but nothing provided so far is going to materially change the facts on the ground pertaining to Flynn’s misconduct.
     
    dtc said:
    You're not being mean. You're being wrong.

    Tell me if you do not see the treatment of Trump and his administration towards every single person who has ever stopped working for him or criticized him.

    From judges to former cabinet members, security advisors including Flynn, and anyone who ever grabs a second of attention disagreeing with trump, this administration destroys anyone it can in furtherence of maintaining the illusion that the Orange Emperor is, in fact, clothed.
    Click to expand...
    You as always changed the subject. I’m not say Trump isn’t a dick to work for as I’m sure he is. In my opinion he is the dick that we needed at this point in our country. Washington has been corrupt for longer that either of us has been alive. Most of D.C. hates Trump because he has been uncovering the trash they are. In 2024 when he leaves office D.C. will be changed a lot. The status quo will be gone. And maybe just maybe we will be able to see politicians for who they are.
    Now back on the subject I was on General Flynn. Their mission from the start was to “get him to lie” or “get him fired”. They were spying on a newly elected president and his staff. We already know Biden was involved and I’d be willing to bet so was Obama.
     
    FullMonte said:
    I'm fairly certain he said "redacted" 302. I think this it.

    Click to expand...
    It’s not hard to find. He’s just playing his technicality games.

    He also clearly hasn’t read it and he clearly is simply playing into the recent right-wing narrative that claims some unknown altering from the first draft is covering up some smoking gun that exonerates Flynn.

    But that seems pretty hard to imagine when you look at the totality of context around the Flynn saga. Where repeatedly, altered or not, Flynn admitted to lying in the manner and method outlined in the most damning parts of that document. And not just one time, but multiple times. Where he was also given multiple opportunities to claim coercion or or pause his cooperation due to any fears or doubts he may have.

    Tony1Sainstfan said:
    You as always changed the subject. I’m not say Trump isn’t a dick to work for as I’m sure he is. In my opinion he is the dick that we needed at this point in our country. Washington has been corrupt for longer that either of us has been alive. Most of D.C. hates Trump because he has been uncovering the trash they are. In 2024 when he leaves office D.C. will be changed a lot. The status quo will be gone. And maybe just maybe we will be able to see politicians for who they are.
    Now back on the subject I was on General Flynn. Their mission from the start was to “get him to lie” or “get him fired”. They were spying on a newly elected president and his staff. We already know Biden was involved and I’d be willing to bet so was Obama.
    Click to expand...
    It truly takes a level of self-delusion or complete immersion into the propaganda machine to think Trump has done anything to clean up government or strengthen our government system.

    People hate Trump because he is a corrupt, narcissistic piece of shirt that has eroded the rule of law, illiberalized institutions, grifted the taxpayer, poisoned the cultural divide for self gain. Abdicated or worsened almost every major pressing issue the country and the planet faces, from healthcare to climate change, and now, has culminated all his worst traits and impulses into a pandemic response that is on the precipice of costing 100,000 Americans their lives and laying the foundation through his mismanagement for an economic maelstrom to challenge the Great Depression.

    I always thought it was delusional how many people in the late Bush years, as the economy laid in ruin, the Middle East in chaos, 45 million people uninsured, endless corruption scandals, countless dead from unnecessary wars, would still wrap themselves in pretzels proclaiming Bush’s greatness. But this class of self-delusional Pro-Trump Republican is on another plane entirely.
     
    Tony1Sainstfan said:
    Now back on the subject I was on General Flynn. Their mission from the start was to “get him to lie” or “get him fired”.
    Click to expand...

    That statement is a pure falsehood. No, their mission from the start was not to get him to lie or to get him fired. ONE PERSON asked in a handwritten note if they were looking for the truth or they just wanted to get him to lie.

    So far, we have seen no evidence of any actual wrongdoing where FBI officials tried to trick him into lying. In fact, they asked him (according to the document I provided earlier) if he recalled a conversation where he discussed the expulsions by the Obama administration and if Flynn might have encouraged Russia not to escalate the situation, and he responded "Not really. I don't remember. It wasn't 'Don't do anything."

    If anything, the FBI helped try to prevent him from lying by indicating, in their question, that they knew what he had discussed.
     
    FullMonte said:
    That statement is a pure falsehood. No, their mission from the start was not to get him to lie or to get him fired. ONE PERSON asked in a handwritten note if they were looking for the truth or they just wanted to get him to lie.

    So far, we have seen no evidence of any actual wrongdoing where FBI officials tried to trick him into lying. In fact, they asked him (according to the document I provided earlier) if he recalled a conversation where he discussed the expulsions by the Obama administration and if Flynn might have encouraged Russia not to escalate the situation, and he responded "Not really. I don't remember. It wasn't 'Don't do anything."

    If anything, the FBI helped try to prevent him from lying by indicating, in their question, that they knew what he had discussed.
    Click to expand...
    Yep, and this gets back to my point about how the hell this guy ever ended up in the positions he has?

    And Obama deserves some blame here as well, but at least Obama learned from his mistakes. Trump seems to be willing to tear down the rule of law to save this Peice of work and to distract from his gross mismanagement of the Covid outbreak.

    The interviewers basically signaled as clear as day that they knew exactly what he did but he still incriminated himself. And even if the conservatives got their fever dream, it wouldn’t alter the fact that Flynn repeatedly admitted to all of this, time and time again, an he, not the FBI, made the choice to not register as a foreign agent knowing full well the legal consequences of that.
     
    FullMonte said:
    That statement is a pure falsehood. No, their mission from the start was not to get him to lie or to get him fired. ONE PERSON asked in a handwritten note if they were looking for the truth or they just wanted to get him to lie.

    So far, we have seen no evidence of any actual wrongdoing where FBI officials tried to trick him into lying. In fact, they asked him (according to the document I provided earlier) if he recalled a conversation where he discussed the expulsions by the Obama administration and if Flynn might have encouraged Russia not to escalate the situation, and he responded "Not really. I don't remember. It wasn't 'Don't do anything."

    If anything, the FBI helped try to prevent him from lying by indicating, in their question, that they knew what he had discussed.
    Click to expand...
    FullMonte said:
    That statement is a pure falsehood. No, their mission from the start was not to get him to lie or to get him fired. ONE PERSON asked in a handwritten note if they were looking for the truth or they just wanted to get him to lie.

    So far, we have seen no evidence of any actual wrongdoing where FBI officials tried to trick him into lying. In fact, they asked him (according to the document I provided earlier) if he recalled a conversation where he discussed the expulsions by the Obama administration and if Flynn might have encouraged Russia not to escalate the situation, and he responded "Not really. I don't remember. It wasn't 'Don't do anything."

    If anything, the FBI helped try to prevent him from lying by indicating, in their question, that they knew what he had discussed.
    Click to expand...
    1589688278787.png

    So get him to lie or get him fired isn’t true? Ok.
     
    N.O.Bronco said:
    Yep, and this gets back to my point about how the hell this guy ever ended up in the positions he has?

    And Obama deserves some blame here as well, but at least Obama learned from his mistakes. Trump seems to be willing to tear down the rule of law to save this Peice of work and to distract from his gross mismanagement of the Covid outbreak.

    The interviewers basically signaled as clear as day that they knew exactly what he did but he still incriminated himself. And even if the conservatives got their fever dream, it wouldn’t alter the fact that Flynn repeatedly admitted to all of this, time and time again, an he, not the FBI, made the choice to not register as a foreign agent knowing full well the legal consequences of that.
    Click to expand...
    Obama didn’t learn from any mistakes he WAS the mistake. But stick around the good times are just getting started. Look on the bright side though you won’t have to worry about Trump running again in 2024 at least not this Trump.
     
    You guys preach about how you are right with plenty of support to say that you are. This is what I refer to as gang mentality. If you hear it enough then it’s true. Well guess what it’s not.
     
    Last edited by a moderator:
    Tony1Sainstfan said:
    Obama didn’t learn from any mistakes he WAS the mistake. But stick around the good times are just getting started. Look on the bright side though you won’t have to worry about Trump running again in 2024 at least not this Trump.
    Click to expand...
    This detachment from reality is giving me a lot of 2018 vibes.

    When a lot of people claimed up and down and front and back that the libs were going to be subject to a bloodbath. All the rights culture wars, all the lefts investigations were going to bring out the Trumpkins en masse and turn moderates against them, crush the Dems for a generation. All the polls were fake news, all the disapproval of the president just manipulation by the liberal media.

    I get it, some people live in a bubble, where Obama was the mistake as Trump’s incompetence and mismanagement is helping kill 100,000 Americans. My faith in the American system is such that it wouldn’t shock me to see Trump win again, not the popular vote because at no point has a majority of the country liked him, but victory could happen. I’d give it 50/50 which is scary. But it won’t change how history will judge this period. It will either be a one term blight or a decade long one. But there is no future save a fascistic decline where history writes favorably about this mans presidency.
     
    Last edited:

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