The Impeachment Process Has Officially Begun (4 Viewers)

Dadsdream said:

Well V-Chip,

Did the Russians try to tilt our election? Of course they did. They've been doing that for decades. So have we, in countries around the world in far more egregious ways than the Russians did. Yes, there were people convicted and sent to jail and that's a good thing. But not DJT, who was the actual target of the whole investigation.

It's my learned opinion that the whole reason for the Muller investigation was to find enough dirt to remove DJT from office and overturn the results of the 2016 election It failed to do that. As such, the Mueller Report will go down in history as exactly what the president labeled it - a witch hunt.

If you want to go around correcting what people are saying because they are technically incorrect in their wording and accuse them a spreading a false narrative, that's fine. But, you take on the appearance of a disappointed partisan who desperately wanted the Mueller Report to find enough dirt to get rid of DJT.

Denying that the purpose of the Muller investigation was to dig up enough dirt to get rid of DJT and overturn the 2016 election result is a false narrative as well, at least from my perspective. I am not alone in that opinion.

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You can have your opinion about the origins of the Mueller investigation, but it runs counter to the facts. The origins of the entire investigation started well before the election. That is a fact. The person who decided to appoint Mueller was a Trump appointee. That is a fact. Calling it a witch hunt to overturn the 2016 election is just a twisting of the facts of the case, no matter how many people say it or how often it is said.

You also misrepresent the scope of the Russian interference in the last presidential election by characterizing it as something that has been done for years, and saying that we do the same, no check that you say we have been far more egregious. I find this argument to be specious. It‘s easy to say, and a lot of pro-Trump people say it, but I’ve never read anything that actually spells out any support for that argument.

Dadsdream said:

Are you seriously asking what attempts the Russians have made in the past to influence our elections?

During the Cold War, it was their standing goal. They had a whole branch of their government that was dedicated to election meddling.

The reality is that the two main Soviet intelligence and security agencies—the KGB and GRU (military intelligence)—kept up a vigorous campaign for several decades to meddle in U.S. politics and discredit the United States. The “active measures” used by the KGB and GRU during the Cold War, including disinformation, forgeries of documents and letters, and the spread of propaganda through sympathetic individuals and front organizations, were remarkably similar to the tactics and goals of Russian intelligence agencies in 2016. Even though the World Wide Web and email did not exist during the Cold War, the basic methods used by the KGB and GRU in 2016 were simply adapted for the cyber age.

Mark Kramer
Director, Cold War Studies Program, and Senior Fellow, Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies
Harvard University

The Soviet Roots of Meddling in U.S. Politics - PONARS Eurasia

(PONARS Policy Memo) The release on January 6 of an unclassified version of the U.S. Intelligence Community’s report describing efforts by Russian security services to influence last year’s U.S. presidential campaign in favor of Donald Trump evoked a sense of deja vu. Despite the advent of...

www.ponarseurasia.org

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My limited knowledge of Russia involvement in elections was just in the cyber age. I am aware of Russia trying to influence American politics in the past along with otjer clandestine operations but wasn’t familiar with specific incidents where they were successful. I know there were propaganda measures in place but don’t recall them wanting a certain candidate to win over another. I’m interested to read your article linked.

I’d appreciate a less condescending tone in the future.

So, the question is - did we have Americans helping the Russians interfere in our elections in an illegal way? Right? That would be a bad thing we should condemn and prosecute. I don't think anyone would argue that correct?

The Mueller report came about because Trump fired Comey for investigating the Trump campaign's potential involvement in such illegal activities. Comey was investigating because of a number of leads that came up during the course of the election, and then the Trump campaign's repeated lying about their own activities.

The Mueller report found that the Trump campaign had contacts with Russian intel assets and welcomed help. The Mueller report also found that Trump repeatedly direct his subordinates to lie and obfuscate the facts to investigators.

Why is obstruction of justice a crime? It's because when someone interferes with an investigation it makes it very difficult to find all the facts and can allow criminals to walk free. Mueller specifically stated that Trump's interference with his investigation prevented his ability to gather all the facts. Mueller further stated it was up to Congress to determine whether Trump obstructed with justice and he would make no determination. Only stating the evidence he had gathered. He did say if he thought Trump was innocent, he would have stated so, and he did not say that Trump was innocent.

If you're ok with the President directing his subordinates to lie to investigators, and deliberately hiding facts, then that's your right.

Nebaghead said:

My limited knowledge of Russia involvement in elections was just in the cyber age. I am aware of Russia trying to influence American politics in the past along with otjer clandestine operations but wasn’t familiar with specific incidents where they were successful. I know there were propaganda measures in place but don’t recall them wanting a certain candidate to win over another. I’m interested to read your article linked.

I’d appreciate a less condescending tone in the future.

Click to expand...

I didn't intend to be condescending. I was simply surprised you weren't aware. But it makes sense from a generational perspective.


Cold War - September 2, 1945 to December 26, 1991.

Dadsdream said:

Well V-Chip,

Did the Russians try to tilt our election? Of course they did. They've been doing that for decades. So have we, in countries around the world in far more egregious ways than the Russians did. Yes, there were people convicted and sent to jail and that's a good thing. But not DJT, who was the actual target of the whole investigation.

It's my learned opinion that the whole reason for the Muller investigation was to find enough dirt to remove DJT from office and overturn the results of the 2016 election It failed to do that. As such, the Mueller Report will go down in history as exactly what the president labeled it - a witch hunt.

[Mod Edit Getting Personal]

Denying that the purpose of the Muller investigation was to dig up enough dirt to get rid of DJT and overturn the 2016 election result is a false narrative as well, at least from my perspective. I am not alone in that opinion.

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So you don’t think the Meuller investigation was justified even though he fired Comey? Do you think the FBI chief he would’ve appointed would’ve been able to fairly continue Comey’s investigation?

On a separate but related topic, given the hordes of people working for Trump that have close connections with the Russians, Trump’s business interests in Russia, the unanimous assessments of all the US investigative agencies and allied investigators that Russia interfered and helped Trump get elected, Trump acting as a sycophant for Putin, Trump obstructing the investigation, and Trump helping block initiatives to protect future elections, don’t you think Trump seems extremely suspicious? Do you think law enforcement agencies should investigate people for which they have probable cause?

MT15 said:

You can have your opinion about the origins of the Mueller investigation, but it runs counter to the facts. The origins of the entire investigation started well before the election. That is a fact. The person who decided to appoint Mueller was a Trump appointee. That is a fact. Calling it a witch hunt to overturn the 2016 election is just a twisting of the facts of the case, no matter how many people say it or how often it is said.

You also misrepresent the scope of the Russian interference in the last presidential election by characterizing it as something that has been done for years, and saying that we do the same, no check that you say we have been far more egregious. I find this argument to be specious. It‘s easy to say, and a lot of pro-Trump people say it, but I’ve never read anything that actually spells out any support for that argument.

Click to expand...

Thank you for acknowledging that I can have my opinion. It's based on my own thoughts, experiences and impressions and is totally unrelated to anybody else's theories, talking points or ideas.

In your second paragraph, you mention that I provide no check that we have been far more egregious?
I didn't think it was necessary to provide proofs that the US engaged in election meddling, but since you asked, I'll provide it.

Dov Levin, an academic from the Institute for Politics and Strategy at Carnegie Mellon University, has calculated the vast scale of election interventions by both the US and Russia.
According to his research, there were 117 “partisan electoral interventions” between 1946 and 2000. That’s around one of every nine competitive elections held since Second World War.
The majority of these – almost 70 per cent – were cases of US interference.

America’s long history of meddling in other countries’ elections

As the FBI investigates claims that Russian meddling helped Donald Trump become president, FactCheck looks at America's own track record of interfering with democratic elections.

www.channel4.com

Dadsdream said:

I didn't intend to be condescending. I was simply surprised you weren't aware. But it makes sense from a generational perspective.

Cold War - September 2, 1945 to December 26, 1991.

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That is funny you think we won a cold war!

It is funny you think it is over. We have an asset in the white house!

My favorite part of the cold war was that dude Senator Joseph McCarthy. He was such a piece of work that we are still paying for today!

From his coaching tree you get Roy Cohn that then leads right to Donald j Trump.

What do they all have in common? They are the same with pushing lies to get their base to follow.

Do you understand that?

Lapaz said:

So you don’t think the Meuller investigation was justified even though he fired Comey? Do you think the FBI chief he would’ve appointed would’ve been able to fairly continue Comey’s investigation?

On a separate but related topic, given the hordes of people working for Trump that have close connections with the Russians, Trump’s business interests in Russia, the unanimous assessments of all the US investigative agencies and allied investigators that Russia interfered and helped Trump get elected, Trump acting as a sycophant for Putin, Trump obstructing the investigation, and Trump helping block initiatives to protect future elections, don’t you think Trump seems extremely suspicious? Do you think law enforcement agencies should investigate people for which they have probable cause?

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I think the ultimate goal of the investigation was to get enough dirt on DJT to remove him from office and thereby reverse the 2016 election. The notion that it was a legitimate investigation with no ulterior motives is specious, to say the least.

We're quick to cite DJT's Russian connections, but turn a blind eye to the Clinton Foundation's Russian connections.

It turns out the Bidens also had loads of shady deals going on in that part of the world. They're not alone. Everybody has been cashing in on Eastern European influence peddling in the power vacuum created by the fall of the Soviet Union.

The truth is that a raft of election laws was put on the books in the post-Richard Nixon era, laws that were promptly ignored by the rich and powerful. When they weren't ignored they were selectively enforced.

Thus, the Mueller Investigation was a hypocritical examination directed at hamstringing a new president, or getting rid of him entirely.

Again, my own thoughts, ideas and interpretations.

Dadsdream said:

I think the ultimate goal of the investigation was to get enough dirt on DJT to remove him from office and thereby reverse the 2016 election. The notion that it was a legitimate investigation with no ulterior motives is specious, to say the least.

We're quick to cite DJT's Russian connections, but turn a blind eye to the Clinton Foundation's Russian connections.

It turns out the Bidens also had loads of shady deals going on in that part of the world. They're not alone. Everybody has been cashing in on Eastern European influence peddling in the power vacuum created by the fall of the Soviet Union.

The truth is that a raft of election laws was put on the books in the post-Richard Nixon era, laws that were promptly ignored by the rich and powerful. When they weren't ignored they were selectively enforced.

Thus, the Mueller Investigation was a hypocritical examination directed at hamstringing a new president, or getting rid of him entirely.

Again, my own thoughts, ideas and interpretations.

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Putin has stated that he but his weight behind Donnie, not bc he thought he would win - he was sure he couldn’t - but bc he wanted to muddy up the beginning of Hillary’s presidency
Obama’s sanctions, that Hillary was part of and would certainly keep or expand, were having major impact on Putin’s kleptocracy
The both sidesism notion is absurd

Dadsdream said:

I think the ultimate goal of the investigation was to get enough dirt on DJT to remove him from office and thereby reverse the 2016 election. The notion that it was a legitimate investigation with no ulterior motives is specious, to say the least.

We're quick to cite DJT's Russian connections, but turn a blind eye to the Clinton Foundation's Russian connections.

It turns out the Bidens also had loads of shady deals going on in that part of the world. They're not alone. Everybody has been cashing in on Eastern European influence peddling in the power vacuum created by the fall of the Soviet Union.

The truth is that a raft of election laws was put on the books in the post-Richard Nixon era, laws that were promptly ignored by the rich and powerful. When they weren't ignored they were selectively enforced.

Thus, the Mueller Investigation was a hypocritical examination directed at hamstringing a new president, or getting rid of him entirely.

Again, my own thoughts, ideas and interpretations.

Click to expand...

And I guess I’ll also push back on this “my thoughts/opinions” notion
Instead os basing those opinions and textual information sitting right in front of you, you push those away and opt for unsubstantiated conspiracy
Might be more accurate to call them your hopes or your belief system or things you heard and are passing along in the hope that something sticks

The moose said:

That is funny you think we won a cold war!

It is funny you think it is over. We have an asset in the white house!

My favorite part of the cold war was that dude Senator Joseph McCarthy. He was such a piece of work that we are still paying for today!

From his coaching tree you get Roy Cohn that then leads right to Donald j Trump.

What do they all have in common? They are the same with pushing lies to get their base to follow.

Do you understand that?

Click to expand...

I didn't issue that medal, but I was awarded one. The United States officially recognized period of the Cold War as defined in the citation of the medal, September 2, 1945 to December 26, 1991.

Yes, I understand all of your assertions. I don't agree, but I understand.

The effort to provide additional VA benefits for those who served in the Cold War has been stalled in Congress for years. Background:

The Cold War Certificate Program is managed exclusively by the U.S. Army Human Resources Command, the official executive agency for the program. Cold War Certificates are available for eligible service-members, veterans, and civilians who faithfully served the United States during the Cold War Era, September 2, 1945 to December 26, 1991.

The certificates were authorized by the 1998 National Defense Authorization Act. In Section 1084 of the legislation, Congress noted that The Cold War was a global military rivalry between the United States and the Soviet Union, “potentially the most dangerous military confrontation in the history of mankind that ended without a direct superpower military conflict.”

The Cold War is not included in the list of conflicts, operations or combat zones that convey certain VA benefits to war-time eligibility, including veterans’ preference for hiring or tax benefits by the Internal Revenue Service.

GMRfellowtraveller said:

And I guess I’ll also push back on this “my thoughts/opinions” notion
Instead os basing those opinions and textual information sitting right in front of you, you push those away and opt for unsubstantiated conspiracy
Might be more accurate to call them your hopes or your belief system or things you heard and are passing along in the hope that something sticks

Click to expand...

"Through the Looking Glass (And What Alice Saw There) is textual information, sitting right in front of us.
That doesn't mean we should base our opinions on what it contains.
We're all spectators. We all derive our thoughts, notions and ideas based on what we see, what we witness, what we study and learn over the course of a lifetime.
I'd ask that you not so quick to dismiss what I'm saying as being "hopes or your belief system or things you heard and are passing along in the hope that something sticks."

Dadsdream said:

"Through the Looking Glass (And What Alice Saw There) is textual information, sitting right in front of us.
That doesn't mean we should base our opinions on what it contains.
We're all spectators. We all derive our thoughts, notions and ideas based on what we see, what we witness, what we study and learn over the course of a lifetime.
I'd ask that you not so quick to dismiss what I'm saying as being "hopes or your belief system or things you heard and are passing along in the hope that something sticks."

Click to expand...

it hasn't been quick - it has been a long and considered process
i'm being serious

The moose said:

That is funny you think we won a cold war!

It is funny you think it is over. We have an asset in the white house!

My favorite part of the cold war was that dude Senator Joseph McCarthy. He was such a piece of work that we are still paying for today!

From his coaching tree you get Roy Cohn that then leads right to Donald j Trump.

What do they all have in common? They are the same with pushing lies to get their base to follow.

Do you understand that?

Click to expand...

The Cold War (1945-1991)Dads references was won. The adversary, the Soviet Union, no longer exists.

You imply that the President of the United States is a Russian asset yet the relationship between the two countries is more adversarial than it was before 2017. Also, a key component of the impeachment charade is lethal military aid that Trump provided the Ukraine.

If one were to ask which US president withheld lethal military aid to Ukraine in order to avoid displeasing Vladimir Putin, the correct answer is not DJT.

Personally, I find the implication that any President of the United States is an agent of a foreign power without explicit evidence beyond what should be acceptable in our discourse.

I find it amusing that you mention McCarthy in the thread about impeachment.

A quote illustrates what I mean (for those not totally blinded by partisanship)

Senator McCarthy's zeal to uncover subversion and espionage led to disturbing excesses. His browbeating tactics destroyed careers of people who were not involved in the infiltration of our government. His freewheeling style caused both the Senate and the Subcommittee to revise the rules governing future investigations, and prompted the courts to act to protect the Constitutional rights of witnesses at Congressional hearings. ... These hearings are a part of our national past that we can neither afford to forget nor permit to reoccur.

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You are correct in that there is a second Cold War being fought. Russia is an adversary in the current struggle but a relatively minor one. The Russian economy is fatally hamstrung by the lack of vision and cleptocratic attitude of its leadership.

Archies Ghost said:

The Cold War (1945-1991)Dads references was won. The adversary, the Soviet Union, no longer exists.

You imply that the President of the United States is a Russian asset yet the relationship between the two countries is more adversarial than it was before 2017. Also, a key component of the impeachment charade is lethal military aid that Trump provided the Ukraine.

If one were to ask which US president withheld lethal military aid to Ukraine in order to avoid displeasing Vladimir Putin, the correct answer is not DJT.

Personally, I find the implication that any President of the United States is an agent of a foreign power without explicit evidence beyond what should be acceptable in our discourse.

I find it amusing that you mention McCarthy in the thread about impeachment.

A quote illustrates what I mean (for those not totally blinded by partisanship)

U.S. Senate: 404 Error Page

404 Error Page

www.senate.gov

You are correct in that there is a second Cold War being fought. Russia is an adversary in the current struggle but a relatively minor one. The Russian economy is fatally hamstrung by the lack of vision and cleptocratic attitude of its leadership.

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I love so much about this post it is just plain beautiful!

First trump did withhold funding. Second the Congress approved the funding overwhelming bipartisan support. That means it had nothing the old djt. Now the holding up is all djt. The aid was Congress got it!

The other president that you guys want to bring up Obama sent them aid not weapons. Then small arms communication equipment all sorts of stuff needed besides blankets.

Kinda glad you bring up McCarthy. The tactics used against our career civil servants by old djt are shockingly similar to McCarthyism.

Because it is.

MT15 said:

Calling it a witch hunt to overturn the 2016 election is just a twisting of the facts of the case, no matter how many people say it or how often it is said.

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Just to be clear and spell it out for those who might be confused, twisting of facts is known as lying.

Dadsdream said:

Thank you for acknowledging that I can have my opinion. It's based on my own thoughts, experiences and impressions and is totally unrelated to anybody else's theories, talking points or ideas.

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Your opinion is based on lies, IMO of course.

Dadsdream said:

In your second paragraph, you mention that I provide no check that we have been far more egregious?
I didn't think it was necessary to provide proofs that the US engaged in election meddling, but since you asked, I'll provide it.

Click to expand...

We nuked Japan twice. Does that mean you would accept the US being nuked by another country because "we did it too"? Your whole argument has been to point to other instances of something happening as if to justify the current situation. You talk about the citing of trump's russian connections and then quickly point to the clinton foundation connections. Trump is the president, the clinton foundation is not.

Your whole response has been nothing but a parade of whataboutism and you have not strayed from it in the least. The more you attempt to defend your [Admin Edit “Orange Savior” partisan triggering] the more you sound like a Russian and Putin apologist. The fact of the matter is that you don't have a cogent defense that you have articulated on trump's actions as president or his ties to Putin and Russia.

It's no secret that the US has interfered with elections in other countries. It was wrong for the US to do it then. That in no way makes it okay for russia to interfere with our elections. "They did it first" or "they do it too" is not a defense that I would think a supposed learned individual would continue to ply.

Dadsdream said:

I think the ultimate goal of the investigation was to get enough dirt on DJT to remove him from office and thereby reverse the 2016 election. The notion that it was a legitimate investigation with no ulterior motives is specious, to say the least.

We're quick to cite DJT's Russian connections, but turn a blind eye to the Clinton Foundation's Russian connections.

It turns out the Bidens also had loads of shady deals going on in that part of the world. They're not alone. Everybody has been cashing in on Eastern European influence peddling in the power vacuum created by the fall of the Soviet Union.

The truth is that a raft of election laws was put on the books in the post-Richard Nixon era, laws that were promptly ignored by the rich and powerful. When they weren't ignored they were selectively enforced.

Thus, the Mueller Investigation was a hypocritical examination directed at hamstringing a new president, or getting rid of him entirely.

Again, my own thoughts, ideas and interpretations.

Click to expand...

I don’t doubt that others have profited from Eastern Europe, but Trump is orders of magnitude worse than anyone before him.

Dadsdream said:

I think the ultimate goal of the investigation was to get enough dirt on DJT to remove him from office and thereby reverse the 2016 election. The notion that it was a legitimate investigation with no ulterior motives is specious, to say the least.

We're quick to cite DJT's Russian connections, but turn a blind eye to the Clinton Foundation's Russian connections.

It turns out the Bidens also had loads of shady deals going on in that part of the world. They're not alone. Everybody has been cashing in on Eastern European influence peddling in the power vacuum created by the fall of the Soviet Union.

The truth is that a raft of election laws was put on the books in the post-Richard Nixon era, laws that were promptly ignored by the rich and powerful. When they weren't ignored they were selectively enforced.

Thus, the Mueller Investigation was a hypocritical examination directed at hamstringing a new president, or getting rid of him entirely.

Again, my own thoughts, ideas and interpretations.

Click to expand...

You didn’t answer my question about whether the investigation was justified. What about Hillary isn’t an answer, and the Clintons have been investigated more than any politicians in modern day history without any findings of wrongdoing. Trump is going to surpass them, however the findings against him are substantial. He’s guilty of many crimes, and most are in plain sight. He will probably be prosecuted after and if he leaves office, unless cowards let him off the hook.