Parnas document release details Giuliani-arranged surveillance, possible threat to Amb. Yovanovitch (1 Viewer)

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superchuck500

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This thread of the Parnas documents seems to deserve its own discussion apart from the impeachment thread. Yovanovitch has called on the State Department to investigate, and Secretary Pompeo has yet to address the disturbing matter.

In the document trove released yesterday, it appears that Giuliani's Ukraine activities included arranging surveillance of U.S. Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch through Lev Parnas and Robert F. Hyde, a Trump donor and now Republican candidate for Congress in Connecticut. The documents reveal the detail to which Yovanovitch was under surveillance and the exchanges (mostly from WhatsApp) suggest that actors were prepared to harm Yovanovitch.

In November, Yovanovitch testified that shortly after these exchanges, she was urged to immediately return to the United States for her own physical safety - advice that she heeded an returned the next day.


 

Nebaghead

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This is the craziest thing I have read yet. There is no excuse for these kind of actions involving a represenative of our government. The justification for Soliemani's assasination was an imminent threat to the embassy. This IMO would be the equivilant of an imminent threat and it is originating from peope associated with our president. Just think about that.
 

JimEverett

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I think I can already see how this will play out. As usual Democrats will go off on the deep end conspiracy theory - Giulliani/Trump/etc. were trying to have the Ambassador killed.

I think that is absurd for a variety of reasons - mainly because it is easy to have her removed.

I think the real question is why is PArnas and Hyde - essentially campaign fundraisers - working to have the Ambassador removed.

Also - why did the House Intelligence Cmtee never call Parnas to testify? He had indicated in November he was willing (under the idea he would testify to Nunes planned trip to Ukraine). Is it because they fid him untrustworthy given he has been indicted?
 

dtc

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I think I can already see how this will play out. As usual Democrats will go off on the deep end conspiracy theory - Giulliani/Trump/etc. were trying to have the Ambassador killed.

I think that is absurd for a variety of reasons - mainly because it is easy to have her removed.

I think the real question is why is PArnas and Hyde - essentially campaign fundraisers - working to have the Ambassador removed.

Also - why did the House Intelligence Cmtee never call Parnas to testify? He had indicated in November he was willing (under the idea he would testify to Nunes planned trip to Ukraine). Is it because they fid him untrustworthy given he has been indicted?
I think your first paragraph is to be expected and nothing more than partisan drivel given the facts as we know them today.

The last two paragraphs, however, are questions of great importance.

The more important question remains "why are Parnas and Hyde following, discussing threats and locations?"

But the most important question is the relationship between them and Trump and, specifically, why Trump's statement about "she's going to go through some things" came about?

Even Trump supporters such as yourself have to find that statement to be curiously damning. It could be more Trump word salad, but it could also show a conspiracy reaching from top to Parnas to harm a US Ambassador to further Trump's political standing.
 

JimEverett

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I think your first paragraph is to be expected and nothing more than partisan drivel given the facts as we know them today.

The last two paragraphs, however, are questions of great importance.

The more important question remains "why are Parnas and Hyde following, discussing threats and locations?"

But the most important question is the relationship between them and Trump and, specifically, why Trump's statement about "she's going to go through some things" came about?

Even Trump supporters such as yourself have to find that statement to be curiously damning. It could be more Trump word salad, but it could also show a conspiracy reaching from top to Parnas to harm a US Ambassador to further Trump's political standing.
Keep suggesting that Trump was involved in a conspiracy to physically harm an Ambassador. And call claims to put the brakes on such as "partisan drivel."

Unhinged to say the least.
 

Nebaghead

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I think I can already see how this will play out. As usual Democrats will go off on the deep end conspiracy theory - Giulliani/Trump/etc. were trying to have the Ambassador killed.

I think that is absurd for a variety of reasons - mainly because it is easy to have her removed.

I think the real question is why is PArnas and Hyde - essentially campaign fundraisers - working to have the Ambassador removed.

Also - why did the House Intelligence Cmtee never call Parnas to testify? He had indicated in November he was willing (under the idea he would testify to Nunes planned trip to Ukraine). Is it because they fid him untrustworthy given he has been indicted?
Even if it is a stretch to say they are going to put a hit on the Ambassador, it is crazy to think they are having her followed and tracking movements. This is nuts. How you are ok with this is beyond me. Is there anything that isn't ok? Does Trump literally have to shoot someone for a line is drawn.
 

samiam5211

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Keep suggesting that Trump was involved in a conspiracy to physically harm an Ambassador. And call claims to put the brakes on such as "partisan drivel."

Unhinged to say the least.
Do you believe that it would be within the president's authority to have his private attorney work with private Ukrainian nationals to keep tabs on a sitting US ambassador?
 

EmBeeFiveOhFour

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Can anyone explain a legitimate reason why Donald Trump would need to reach out to a foreign government leader through his personal attorney requesting discussions involving Trump in his capacity as a "private citizen" if this was all just standard foreign relations activity and not an attempt to use the power of the office for a personal favor?

 

coldseat

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To me, one of the worst parts of this whole sordid story is the hit job that was placed on Yovanovich. This is only further proof of that campaign. She was singled out, discredited and attacked solely because she was doing her job! Trump could have easily just removed her without cause (even if he would have faced questions) or had her moved. They could have just waited for her to retire or not have asked her back. But No, they carried out this whole campaign against her, with secret plotting and meetings, just so they would have a "justification" for it. No care to her reputation, family or future. This wasn't somebody who was working against the administration or a political opponent, she was just a public servant working to carry out the stated public policy of the US and actually fighting corruption in the Ukraine.

I don't know how any US citizen can look at how they treated her and be okay with a president (any president) doing that.

(And no DD. I don't care if a president did this once 50 years ago. There is no justification for it.)
 
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superchuck500

superchuck500

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Keep suggesting that Trump was involved in a conspiracy to physically harm an Ambassador. And call claims to put the brakes on such as "partisan drivel."

Unhinged to say the least.
I agree with you for the most part - but we also have to be fair to the evidence we have.

We know that Giuliani was pushing the Biden/Ukraine matter since December 2018. We know that Giuliani was in Ukraine in the Spring of 2019, and representing that he was acting on behalf of his personal client Donald Trump, whom Giuliani claimed had both knowledge and consent to Giuliani's activities. We know that Giuliani engaged Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman in furtherance of these activities. We know that Giuliani was at least aware of Hyde's involvement and met with him.

Thereafter, these documents speak for themselves - I don't think there's reason to believe that they're fabricated. Beyond that, we get into interpretation. Clearly they were involved in fairly heavy surveillance of Ambassador Yovanovitch. Clearly they were monitoring her movements and her security. There is some veiled discussion of "doing something" but it's not totally clear if that means physical harm. And we know that the State Department phoned Yovanovitch at 1am and urged her to get on the next plane to Washington for fear for her safety. A warning that she heeded.

Okay, so we don't know just how much Giuliani knew of or authorized (even ordered) those activities - but we know that he's leading the broader mission that Parnas and Hyde were advancing, and that Giuliani was in personal contact with those two individuals. And we know that he was leading that mission with the "knowledge and consent" of Trump, per his own words.

I don't think Trump was telling Rudy to move on Yovanovitch's life or personal safety. And perhaps none of these activities were known to Trump at all. But to categorically dismiss real concern over this evidence as the unhinged response of leftists is unfair to what is actually there.
 

wardorican

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I think I can already see how this will play out. As usual Democrats will go off on the deep end conspiracy theory - Giulliani/Trump/etc. were trying to have the Ambassador killed.

I think that is absurd for a variety of reasons - mainly because it is easy to have her removed.

I think the real question is why is PArnas and Hyde - essentially campaign fundraisers - working to have the Ambassador removed.

Also - why did the House Intelligence Cmtee never call Parnas to testify? He had indicated in November he was willing (under the idea he would testify to Nunes planned trip to Ukraine). Is it because they fid him untrustworthy given he has been indicted?
I believe the data dump needed a judge's order to release. Would something similar apply to Parnas? Unable to testify while his legal issues were ongoing?
 

JimEverett

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I agree with you for the most part - but we also have to be fair to the evidence we have.

We know that Giuliani was pushing the Biden/Ukraine matter since December 2018. We know that Giuliani was in Ukraine in the Spring of 2019, and representing that he was acting on behalf of his personal client Donald Trump, whom Giuliani claimed had both knowledge and consent to Giuliani's activities. We know that Giuliani engaged Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman in furtherance of these activities. We know that Giuliani was at least aware of Hyde's involvement and met with him.

Thereafter, these documents speak for themselves - I don't think there's reason to believe that they're fabricated. Beyond that, we get into interpretation. Clearly they were involved in fairly heavy surveillance of Ambassador Yovanovitch. Clearly they were monitoring her movements and her security. There is some veiled discussion of "doing something" but it's not totally clear if that means physical harm. And we know that the State Department phoned Yovanovitch at 1am and urged her to get on the next plane to Washington for fear for her safety. A warning that she heeded.

Okay, so we don't know just how much Giuliani knew of or authorized (even ordered) those activities - but we know that he's leading the broader mission that Parnas and Hyde were advancing, and that Giuliani was in personal contact with those two individuals. And we know that he was leading that mission with the "knowledge and consent" of Trump, per his own words.

I don't think Trump was telling Rudy to move on Yovanovitch's life or personal safety. And perhaps none of these activities were known to Trump at all. But to categorically dismiss real concern over this evidence as the unhinged response of leftists is unfair to what is actually there.
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that concern with this is evidence of anti-Trumpers being unhinged. I think I have been consistent from day 1 in saying something is too weird with Giulliani playing a role in these Ukrainian activites. But here we are some 7 r 8 months later and I don;t think there has been much clarification as to what, exactly Giulliani was doing or trying to do. This sheds some light on that - clearly - so I agree it is important information.

But, my point was, I can see that there will be a substantial faction of people who say this is proof that Trump tried to kill the Ambassador, and they will run with it. And I think this is partly how Trump seems to "win" a lot of these battles - "see, they said the economy would collapse after I was elected; see, they said I was a Russian agent; see, they said I was going to start WW3; see, they said I tried to kill a U.S. ambassador . . . "
 

Archies Ghost

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The conclusion that they were planning to murder the US Ambassador based upon the available context is an outlandish interpretation.

Embassy personal are routinely under constant surveillance by the host country everywhere in the world. The fact that the fruit of that surveillance would be for sale in a corrupt country like Ukraine is not all that surprising.

Its fairly obvious Hyde had access to the Ukraine government surveillance of Yovanovitch and was telling Parnas that they were willing to continue feeding information for a price.

However, feel free to run with the Guiliani assassination narrative. It certainly is more amusing.

 

coldseat

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We're 15 post in, and the only ones so far suggesting that there was an assignation plan against Yovanovich are contained in these post below (all by posters on the right defending Trump). You guys are really practiced at setting up extreme strawmen and then arugring against that, instead of discussing the truly disturbing information that just came out. This is really how Trump escapes all of these serious accusations. The right sets up and pushes the most extreme strawman (aided by a few people on the left who truly believe the extreme), and then the rest of us have to spend time deflecting accusations as to what we truly believe instead of discussing the topic at hand. Same thing happens on the macro scale with media. It's already working and this just came out.

I think I can already see how this will play out. As usual Democrats will go off on the deep end conspiracy theory - Giulliani/Trump/etc. were trying to have the Ambassador killed.

I think that is absurd for a variety of reasons - mainly because it is easy to have her removed.

I think the real question is why is PArnas and Hyde - essentially campaign fundraisers - working to have the Ambassador removed.

Also - why did the House Intelligence Cmtee never call Parnas to testify? He had indicated in November he was willing (under the idea he would testify to Nunes planned trip to Ukraine). Is it because they fid him untrustworthy given he has been indicted?
Keep suggesting that Trump was involved in a conspiracy to physically harm an Ambassador. And call claims to put the brakes on such as "partisan drivel."

Unhinged to say the least.
I miss the old days when gangsters and mafia bosses discussing hits didn't reply back with "LOL"... Kinda takes something away...
Just to be clear, I am not suggesting that concern with this is evidence of anti-Trumpers being unhinged. I think I have been consistent from day 1 in saying something is too weird with Giulliani playing a role in these Ukrainian activites. But here we are some 7 r 8 months later and I don;t think there has been much clarification as to what, exactly Giulliani was doing or trying to do. This sheds some light on that - clearly - so I agree it is important information.

But, my point was, I can see that there will be a substantial faction of people who say this is proof that Trump tried to kill the Ambassador, and they will run with it. And I think this is partly how Trump seems to "win" a lot of these battles - "see, they said the economy would collapse after I was elected; see, they said I was a Russian agent; see, they said I was going to start WW3; see, they said I tried to kill a U.S. ambassador . . . "
The conclusion that they were planning to murder the US Ambassador based upon the available context is an outlandish interpretation.

Embassy personal are routinely under constant surveillance by the host country everywhere in the world. The fact that the fruit of that surveillance would be for sale in a corrupt country like Ukraine is not all that surprising.

Its fairly obvious Hyde had access to the Ukraine government surveillance of Yovanovitch and was telling Parnas that they were willing to continue feeding information for a price.

However, feel free to run with the Guiliani assassination narrative. It certainly is more amusing.

 

samiam5211

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We're 15 post in, and the only ones so far suggesting that there was an assignation plan against Yovanovich are contained in these post below (all by posters on the right defending Trump). You guys are really practiced at setting up extreme strawmen and then arugring against that, instead of discussing the truly disturbing information that just came out. This is really how Trump escapes all of these serious accusations. The right sets up and pushes the most extreme strawman (aided by a few people on the left who truly believe the extreme), and then the rest of us have to spend time deflecting accusations as to what we truly believe instead of discussing the topic at hand. Same thing happens on the macro scale with media. It's already working and this just came out.
In their defense, i've said it several times. I stand by my conclusions, but the slew of Johnny Cochran's defending Trump will keep pointing out that the glove doesn't fit.
 

JimEverett

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We're 15 post in, and the only ones so far suggesting that there was an assignation plan against Yovanovich are contained in these post below (all by posters on the right defending Trump). You guys are really practiced at setting up extreme strawmen and then arugring against that, instead of discussing the truly disturbing information that just came out. This is really how Trump escapes all of these serious accusations. The right sets up and pushes the most extreme strawman (aided by a few people on the left who truly believe the extreme), and then the rest of us have to spend time deflecting accusations as to what we truly believe instead of discussing the topic at hand. Same thing happens on the macro scale with media. It's already working and this just came out.
look on the other thread - there is more than a couple of posters suggesting there was a plan to kill the Ambassador.
And it wa not Trump supporters claiming Tump's election was going to collapse the economy, that Trum was a Russian agent, that Trump was going to start WW3 - and a host of other crazy claims.
 

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