Socialsim is only possible through Coercion, by Paul (old title: Equity v. Equality and Government Policy) (1 Viewer)

[coldseat]

I thought of posting this in the All Things Racist thread, but ultimately felt it would be better in it's own thread. I ran across this opinion by George Will warning about the creeping danger of equity based government policy pushed by progressives. His overriding point is:

Harlan’s Plessy dissent insisted that the Constitution’s post-Civil War amendments forbid “the imposition of any burdens or disabilities that constitute badges of slavery or servitude.” Today, 125 years later, multiplying departures from colorblind government — myriad race-based preferential treatments — are becoming a different but also invidious badge: of permanent incapacity.

Laws or administrative policies adopted for (in the words of today’s chief justice, John G. Roberts Jr.) the “sordid” practice of “divvying us up by race” can be deleterious for the intended beneficiaries. Benefits allocated to a specially protected racial cohort might come to be seen as a badge of inferiority. Such preferences might seem to insinuate that recipients of government-dispensed special privileges cannot thrive without them.

Government spoils systems, racial or otherwise, wound their beneficiaries. Getting used to special dependency, and soon experiencing it as an entitlement, the beneficiaries might come to feel entitled to preferences forever. Hence, progressives working to supplant equality of opportunity with “equity” — race-conscious government allocation of social rewards — are profoundly insulting, and potentially injurious, to African Americans and other favored groups.

Canellos’s stirring biography resoundingly establishes that Harlan was a hero. So, what are those who today are trying to erase the great principle of colorblindness that Harlan championed?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/30/pursuing-equity-over-equality-reveals-nations-moral-regression/

This is a very convincing argument for equality based government policy, one that I used to believe in, but it ignores a lot of realities and history. First, it ignores that centuries of purposeful inequality in government policy have directly led to the economic, social, and community destabilization and destitution that prevented black families for accumulating wealth. And how those purposeful actions have lead to the astonishing difference in the wealth gap between black and white families that has only worsened over time. While conservative will acknowledge this wealth gap and pay lip service to closing it, they fail to admit/consider how equality based public policy (something we've been trying to implement in race neutral government policy since the 60's) has failed to correct the issue and in many case has served to exacerbate it. While race neutral, equality based government policy may be easier for white voters to accept, it fails to address the historic inequalities entrenched by centuries of purposeful government based inequality. John Oliver make this point perfectly in this piece on housing discrimination. It's a 30 minute commitment, but well worth it because he provides a lot of prospective.



My overall point here is that if we you actually care or want to correct the effects centuries has purposeful government inequality, you actually have to target the aid and remediation to the people who where targeted in the inequality (i.e. equity based government policy). Anything else is paying lip service to the problem and asking black people in particular to "just get over it".

 

[brandon]

The sad reality is that there is no such thing as equality. All humans are different from each other. Even identical twins with the same DNA achieve differently. Each human is unique.

The system will always have "haves" and 'have not".

Being born to well to do parents is a massive advantage. What do you want to do about that?

The higher a person is in the socioeconomic hierarchy the greater the opportunities. There is no equality.

Roderick Stackelberg places fascism—including Nazism, which he says is "a radical variant of fascism"—on the political right by explaining: "The more a person deems absolute equality among all people to be a desirable condition, the further left he or she will be on the ideological spectrum. The more a person considers inequality to be unavoidable or even desirable, the further to the right he or she will be".[56]

So anyway, still not a moderate.

 

[samiam5211]

What!

That is the biggest straw man in the world. All I said is that there is more to generational wealth than just cash. For example Nigerians have a long tradition of academics and are among the best educated group in America. There is nothing racist about that.

The group of Nigerians who generally come to the US are from the upper class of people in Nigeria. You don't see much immigration from slums of Lagos or the villages in rural Nigeria.

Nigerian immigrants to the US are usually from the top 5% of Nigerian Society.

Familial wealth is the primary reason these people do so well.

 

[zztop]

Once people go on UBI they will stop climbing the socioeconomic ladder, but thats is the price we will pay.

You don't know what will or won't happen. I like to think of it akin to a scholarship to a school that a person would never be able to attend/afford otherwise. I am willing to bet the vast majority of those who get those types of scholarships go on to put that opportunity to good use.

 

[Paul]

The group of Nigerians who generally come to the US are from the upper class of people in Nigeria. You don't see much immigration from slums of Lagos or the villages in rural Nigeria.

Nigerian immigrants to the US are usually from the top 5% of Nigerian Society.

Familial wealth is the primary reason these people do so well.

I think they also have generation cultural traits that leads to success. Slavery destroyed those traits in America.

 

[Paul]

You don't know what will or won't happen. I like to think of it akin to a scholarship to a school that a person would never be able to attend/afford otherwise. I am willing to bet the vast majority of those who get those types of scholarships go on to put that opportunity to good use.

Finland tried UBI for two years and it did not work as expected. The idea was that people would have been encouraged to work while keeping the IBI.

Finland to end basic income trial after two years

Government rejects request for funds to expand scheme and plans stricter benefits rules

www.theguardian.com

I think UBI will help many whereas others would use it as a crutch and not try to better themselves. We could end up with a society of "UBIs and non-UBIs" rather than "haves and have nots". That is my opinion, however, I realize that UBI will happen and it will be necessary to sustain many.

 

[Paul]

Behaviors are not inherited. They are taught.

Oh dear.

Personality traits which influence behavior are inherited and shaped by the environment. Some people are born shy whereas others are born extroverted. This is very basic stuff compañero.

 

[First Time Poster]

I think they also have generation cultural traits that leads to success. Slavery destroyed those traits in America.

Bro...

Okay, Paul, what cultural traits did slavery destroy?

 

[zztop]

I think UBI will help many whereas others would use it as a crush and not try to better themselves. We could end up with a society of "UBIs and non-UBIs" rather than "haves and have nots". That is my opinion, however, I realize that UBI will happen and it will be necessary to sustain many.

But this happens everywhere. You got rich kids amounting to nothing. UBI is not going to be a cure-all without other measures, it is more like a stepping stone.
We have a UBI topic https://madaboutpolitics.com/threads/min-wage-ubi-debt-forgiveness.110593/
But here is an article I found where some say why UBI experiment "failed". It is too long to copy/paste the entire article, but there is some nuance to the reason "why" not just black/white.

One of the world's largest basic-income trials, a 2-year program in Finland, was a major flop. But experts say the test was flawed.

Two years after Finland launched a basic-income trial for unemployed residents, many of the recipients remained jobless.

www.businessinsider.com

As for here, I don't think it will happen here any time soon. I also don't think UBI would be needed (IF) other things happened instead, less pressure points so to speak etc. But those things probably won't be happening any time soon either.

 

[Paul]

Bro...

Okay, Paul, what cultural traits did slavery destroy?

If people cannot get educated they cannot pass that tradition to the next generation.

 

[Paul]

I tell you what I wouldn't do: continue to give tax breaks to wealthy people.
A millionaire would hardly get any value in getting an extra $10,000(arbitrary number) a year, compared to a person who struggles to pay for their child's lunch at school.
You said you were in favor of UBI, lets start there.
But then again there is a lot of pushback in certain groups on the right. Calling them freeloaders and other things.

Anyone see recently how a lot of republican governors cut back on covid relief/unemployment in some (misguided) attempt to "entice" people to get back to work (to these low paying jobs) - The real issue is a lot of people didn't want to risk getting sick with covid (when a lot of people are refusing to wear masks, or get vaccinated) alllll for a sub-standard minimum wage that hasn't increased in a decade.

OK, let's say the billionaires pay more taxes. Will that end poverty?

 

[samiam5211]

I think they also have generation cultural traits that leads to success. Slavery destroyed those traits in America.

Which cultural generational traits of these Nigerians are you referring to?

People from poor families in Nigeria aren’t immigrating to the United States. Your experience is limited, and you assume it is a sample representative of Nigerians in this case, but you do that quite a bit.

 

[Paul]

Which cultural generational traits of these Nigerians are you referring to?

People from poor families in Nigeria aren’t immigrating to the United States. Your experience is limited, and you assume it is a sample representative of Nigerians in this case, but you do that quite a bit.

The Most Successful Ethnic Group in the U.S. May Surprise You | OZY

Nigerian-Americans are on a path to become one of the most successful immigrant groups in American history.

www.ozy.com

 

[V Chip]

Personality traits which influence behavior are inherited and shaped by the environment. Some people are born shy whereas others are born extroverted. This is very basic stuff compañero.

Shyness is not inherited. Goodness gracious inherent attributes are not the same as an inherited attribute. THAT is very basic stuff.

The science behind why some of us are shy

To certain people, mingling at a party or talking to a crowded room is the stuff of nightmares. Why are some of us hardwired to be shy?

www.bbc.com

 

[Paul]

Shyness is not inherited. Goodness gracious inherent attributes are not the same as an inherited attribute. THAT is very basic stuff.

Shyness is inherited. Look it up.
Personality traits are inherited and shaped by the environment. Google is your friend. Humans are not a blank slate.

 

[V Chip]

OK, let's say the billionaires pay more taxes. Will that end poverty?

No.

But why the extreme? That’s like saying “will medicine end diseases?” No but it sure as fork helps.

 

[Paul]

No.

But why the extreme? That’s like saying “will medicine end diseases?” No but it sure as fork helps.

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

Margaret Thatcher

 

[V Chip]

Shyness is inherited. Look it up.
Personality traits are inherited and shaped by the environment. Google is your friend. Humans are not a blank slate.

No man it isn’t. I figured you would just claim that so I edited my message to include a link

Here is a snippet from it:

She says that only about 30% of shyness as a trait is down to genetics and the rest comes about as a response to the environment.

So the environment is almost more important for developing these sorts of traits, she says. And one of the interesting things about genetics is that it drives us to extract aspects of the environment that match our actual predispositions.

“It’s not that it’s one or the other; it’s both [genes and environment] and they work together,” says Eley. “It's a dynamic system. And because of that, you can always change it through psychological therapies that can teach you techniques to cope.”

Yeah Google is your friend. It helps if you don’t filter it for your predetermined conclusion though.

 

[V Chip]

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

Margaret Thatcher

Silly quote means nothing and doesn’t address my post in any way.