Socialsim is only possible through Coercion, by Paul (old title: Equity v. Equality and Government Policy) (1 Viewer)

[coldseat]

I thought of posting this in the All Things Racist thread, but ultimately felt it would be better in it's own thread. I ran across this opinion by George Will warning about the creeping danger of equity based government policy pushed by progressives. His overriding point is:

Harlan’s Plessy dissent insisted that the Constitution’s post-Civil War amendments forbid “the imposition of any burdens or disabilities that constitute badges of slavery or servitude.” Today, 125 years later, multiplying departures from colorblind government — myriad race-based preferential treatments — are becoming a different but also invidious badge: of permanent incapacity.

Laws or administrative policies adopted for (in the words of today’s chief justice, John G. Roberts Jr.) the “sordid” practice of “divvying us up by race” can be deleterious for the intended beneficiaries. Benefits allocated to a specially protected racial cohort might come to be seen as a badge of inferiority. Such preferences might seem to insinuate that recipients of government-dispensed special privileges cannot thrive without them.

Government spoils systems, racial or otherwise, wound their beneficiaries. Getting used to special dependency, and soon experiencing it as an entitlement, the beneficiaries might come to feel entitled to preferences forever. Hence, progressives working to supplant equality of opportunity with “equity” — race-conscious government allocation of social rewards — are profoundly insulting, and potentially injurious, to African Americans and other favored groups.

Canellos’s stirring biography resoundingly establishes that Harlan was a hero. So, what are those who today are trying to erase the great principle of colorblindness that Harlan championed?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/30/pursuing-equity-over-equality-reveals-nations-moral-regression/

This is a very convincing argument for equality based government policy, one that I used to believe in, but it ignores a lot of realities and history. First, it ignores that centuries of purposeful inequality in government policy have directly led to the economic, social, and community destabilization and destitution that prevented black families for accumulating wealth. And how those purposeful actions have lead to the astonishing difference in the wealth gap between black and white families that has only worsened over time. While conservative will acknowledge this wealth gap and pay lip service to closing it, they fail to admit/consider how equality based public policy (something we've been trying to implement in race neutral government policy since the 60's) has failed to correct the issue and in many case has served to exacerbate it. While race neutral, equality based government policy may be easier for white voters to accept, it fails to address the historic inequalities entrenched by centuries of purposeful government based inequality. John Oliver make this point perfectly in this piece on housing discrimination. It's a 30 minute commitment, but well worth it because he provides a lot of prospective.



My overall point here is that if we you actually care or want to correct the effects centuries has purposeful government inequality, you actually have to target the aid and remediation to the people who where targeted in the inequality (i.e. equity based government policy). Anything else is paying lip service to the problem and asking black people in particular to "just get over it".

 

[Paul]

You are completely missing the boat when your graph from the irs is about income tax. Last I checked the filthy don't pay themselves a taxable income. Warren buffet has paid himself exactly 21 bucks that is counted as income since the turn of the century. So yes a person making minimum wage for one day paid more in income tax than the sixth richest person in the friggin world did for twenty years.

Yes, it is possible to own a huge business and not receive a salary. Sometimes they take other forms of payments such as stocks or dividends that are taxed at a lower rate. Blame your congressman for that! The profits are still taxed!
BTW, the top 50% earners pay 97% of the total federal tax bill.

This thread started about generational wealth not allowed to people of color. Watch the video it is blatantly obvious if you do. Even if you don't like john Oliver he makes is dead simple to follow.

I am well aware of the concept. Being born to well to do parents is a massive advantage. What do you want to do about that? Being born to East Asian parents is also a huge advantage as many East Asian kids do incredibly well in school and end up earning much more than white people.

BTW, I had to save to put a down payment on a house. I had white friends that got the money from a wealthy grandparent. What am I supposed to do about that?

No matter how many cartoons you post about people looking over a wall at a baseball game it won't change a thing. Your cartoon is about people that can't afford a ticket and are poor the upper middle and higher are at the game.

Yes, you are correct. Humans exist in a hierarchy of talent and competency. there is no such thing as equality.

Generational wealth is a real thing. I have plenty of white friends that have huge nest eggs from the ww2 home loans their grandfather got that appreciated and has been passed down.

Yes, that is correct! What do you propose to fix that?
By the way, there is also generational lost of cash.

Indeed, 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third, according to the Williams Group wealth consultancy.

70% of Rich Families Lose Their Wealth by the Second Generation

A little honesty might help preserve the family fortune.

money.com

 

[Paul]

Some of those salads at fast food joints are just as unhealthy as those hamburgers. Natural, organic foods/meals tend to be more expensive because they are harder to mass produce.

I cannot overtstate this anymore. Many people that are not poor are also addicted to junk food and soda pop.

Some people are born in the gutter and not given the same tools or opportunities. If you are born into poverty your life will be a lot harder in various ways vs if you were born into wealth, or even middle class.

The higher a person is in the socioeconomic hierarchy the greater the opportunities. There is no equality. If you have the solution I am all ears.

 

[zztop]

I cannot overtstate this anymore. Many people that are not poor are also addicted to junk food and soda pop.

Oh I agree with you on that. A lot of people love their junk food, sodas etc. But this isn't what we are talking about. Theres a difference between "a lot of people like unhealthy food" vs "a lot of people who are in poverty can't afford better food" and this applies to a lot of other areas as well. Schooling, health care. A lot of things people, who might be in middle class or wealthy, take for granted

 

[Paul]

Oh I agree with you on that. A lot of people love their junk food, sodas etc. But this isn't what we are talking about. Theres a difference between "a lot of people like unhealthy food" vs "a lot of people who are in poverty can't afford better food" and this applies to a lot of other areas as well. Schooling, health care. A lot of things people, who might be in middle class or wealthy, take for granted

I do not disagree.
The question is:

How do you get people out of poverty?
A lot of poor people have moved up to the middle class. In most instances they took advantage of the opportunities and worked hard. Immigrants tend to do this better than Americans that have been here for a long time. The immigrant see opportunities everywhere. How about trying to figure out what they do? It is obviously working!.

OTOH, we are making progress, but it is slow and I see desperation and frustration.

The poverty rate has been declining regardless of which administration was in power.

 

[V Chip]

Indeed, 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third, according to the Williams Group wealth consultancy.

70% of Rich Families Lose Their Wealth by the Second Generation

A little honesty might help preserve the family fortune.

money.com

I don’t agree with that study. It goes against multiple other studies that showed that generational wealth is incredibly strong; for instance the average descendant of the richest families in England from 1850 had markedly more wealth than average people from non-wealthy families. Or Italy, where the same families were at the top of the wealth ladder today as in 1460 — 600 *years* of wealth dominance.

 

[Paul]

I don’t agree with that study. It goes against multiple other studies that showed that generational wealth is incredibly strong; for instance the average descendant of the richest families in England from 1850 had markedly more wealth than average people from non-wealthy families. Or Italy, where the same families were at the top of the wealth ladder today as in 1460 — 600 *years* of wealth dominance.

Sure, not all lose the wealth.

Being born in a great family is much more than just money. A family is also the accumulation of multiple generational behavioral traits such as work ethic, inclination for academics, art, etc. I am the combination of all my ancestors. I may have some behaviors that I acquired from a great grand parent I never met.

There is a reason as to why the children of East Asian and Indian immigrants have a higher socio-economic and educational status than whites in America. Generational wealth is much more than just cash. IN America we also see how Jamaican immigrants thrive ahead of black Americans even though they also had slavery. However, Jamaicans do not have the generational baggage (memes) of black Americans.

 

[First Time Poster]

Sure, not all lose the wealth.

Being born in a great family is much more than just money. A family is also the accumulation of multiple generational behavioral traits such as work ethic, inclination for academics, art, etc. I am the combination of all my ancestors. I may have some behaviors that I acquired from a great grand parent I never met.

There is a reason as to why the children of East Asian and Indian immigrants have a higher socio-economic and educational status than whites in America. Generational wealth is much more than just cash. IN America we also see how Jamaican immigrants thrive ahead of black Americans even though they also had slavery. However, Jamaicans do not have the generational baggage (memes) of black Americans.

This forking guy...

So, if I'm Black and poor, check that, if I'm an American black and poor I inherited shiftiness, laziness and poor work habits from my ancestors? That's part of the reason why I am poor?

I think at this point you need to stop purseyfooting around and lightly pressing your lips to the dog whistle and just say what you need to say. It's pretty evident to the rest of us what you are implying.

 

[Goatman saint]

That’s why I gave up on this thread. If someone has fight they succeed. If you weren’t born to a strong family then you are lazy, and choose to eat garbage food because. And lord help trying to level the playing field so they have a chance since fighting people will succeed far better anyway.
It’s obtuse people like this which continue to send this country straight down the drain. While the .1% sails in their yacht that have little yachts that dock inside them, the 80% of this country on the lower levels are sitting here going after each other to essentially pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

-Thing is a lot of people don’t even have boots…..

 

[RebSaint]

That’s why I gave up on this thread. If someone has fight they succeed. If you weren’t born to a strong family then you are lazy, and choose to eat garbage food because. And lord help trying to level the playing field so they have a chance since fighting people will succeed far better anyway.
It’s obtuse people like this which continue to send this country straight down the drain. While the .1% sails in their yacht that have little yachts that dock inside them, the 80% of this country on the lower levels are sitting here going after each other to essentially pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

-Thing is a lot of people don’t even have boots…..

Here's the thing, (and it's supported through lots and lots of historical studies and scholarship) aversion to social programs and gov't intervention in general is always and will probably always be connected to fear, anger and loathing towards non-white people, immigrants and other minorities. And the top 1% have created a strong, historical ecosystem of language, methods and tactics to prevent middle and working classes to see who's really shafting them.

 

[Paul]

This forking guy...

So, if I'm Black and poor, check that, if I'm an American black and poor I inherited shiftiness, laziness and poor work habits from my ancestors? That's part of the reason why I am poor?

I think at this point you need to stop purseyfooting around and lightly pressing your lips to the dog whistle and just say what you need to say. It's pretty evident to the rest of us what you are implying.

What!

That is the biggest straw man in the world. All I said is that there is more to generational wealth than just cash. For example Nigerians have a long tradition of academics and are among the best educated group in America. There is nothing racist about that.

 

[coldseat]

Here's the thing, (and it's supported through lots and lots of historical studies and scholarship) aversion to social programs and gov't intervention in general is always and will probably always be connected to fear, anger and loathing towards non-white people, immigrants and other minorities. And the top 1% have created a strong, historical ecosystem of language, methods and tactics to prevent middle and working classes to see who's really shafting them.

Funny you say that, I read this opinion piece in the Post today. No doubt may rural/poor Americans will see this as a giveaway to minorities and immigrants in urban areas, even as they largely profit from it. Republicans will definitely paint that picture for them and they will eat it up.It has long been central to Republican mythology that Democrats have nothing but seething contempt for the rural and small-town inhabitants of the Real American Heartland. Republicans sometimes pair this with vile lies about Democratic proposals that would deliver economic benefits to those regions, turning their residents against them.

An important new study of the distribution of benefits from a major new policy from President Biden and Democrats — the expanded child tax credit — illuminates the repulsiveness of this scam with unusual clarity.

The new analysis from the Niskanen Center finds that the expanded child allowance — which has started delivering up to $300 per child per month to most U.S. households with children — will shower outsize benefits on residents of rural and less populous states and will deliver a disproportionately large relative boost to their local economies.

It has long been central to Republican mythology that Democrats have nothing but seething contempt for the rural and small-town inhabitants of the Real American Heartland. Republicans sometimes pair this with vile lies about Democratic proposals that would deliver economic benefits to those regions, turning their residents against them.

An important new study of the distribution of benefits from a major new policy from President Biden and Democrats — the expanded child tax credit — illuminates the repulsiveness of this scam with unusual clarity.

The new analysis from the Niskanen Center finds that the expanded child allowance — which has started delivering up to $300 per child per month to most U.S. households with children — will shower outsize benefits on residents of rural and less populous states and will deliver a disproportionately large relative boost to their local economies.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...rump-voters-continues-new-study-shows-latest/

Which kind of fits perfectly with this admonishment from and opinion article on CNN:

Democrats are on the verge of repeating a voting rights blunder that led to the rise of Jim Crow | CNN Politics

President Biden is following a script that once doomed Black voters – and the party they supported – by not going all out to protect voting rights.

www.cnn.com

 

[Paul]

This forking guy...

So, if I'm Black and poor, check that, if I'm an American black and poor I inherited shiftiness, laziness and poor work habits from my ancestors? That's part of the reason why I am poor?

I think at this point you need to stop purseyfooting around and lightly pressing your lips to the dog whistle and just say what you need to say. It's pretty evident to the rest of us what you are implying.

OK, I went back I re-read my post. I can see why this bothers you. Imagine being in slavery for many generations where the families are divided. There is no generational wealth to pass, but behaviors and traditions are not passed either. If that seems incendiary I apologize.

 

[UriUT]

This forking guy...

So, if I'm Black and poor, check that, if I'm an American black and poor I inherited shiftiness, laziness and poor work habits from my ancestors? That's part of the reason why I am poor?

I think at this point you need to stop purseyfooting around and lightly pressing your lips to the dog whistle and just say what you need to say. It's pretty evident to the rest of us what you are implying.

You need to emulate the asians. They aren't discriminated and are doing well. They speak no racism therefore no racist treatment falls on them. And we need to sprinkle in a little eugenics to make your life and others like you better.

That is the solution. Years of policy makers missed that fine point.

And btw, I may have a break through! How does one set up a study to answer the question of which race or culture are more successful? It seems like that answer has been casually referenced but I want actual data.

 

[zztop]

How do you get people out of poverty?

I tell you what I wouldn't do: continue to give tax breaks to wealthy people.
A millionaire would hardly get any value in getting an extra $10,000(arbitrary number) a year, compared to a person who struggles to pay for their child's lunch at school.
You said you were in favor of UBI, lets start there.
But then again there is a lot of pushback in certain groups on the right. Calling them freeloaders and other things.

Anyone see recently how a lot of republican governors cut back on covid relief/unemployment in some (misguided) attempt to "entice" people to get back to work (to these low paying jobs) - The real issue is a lot of people didn't want to risk getting sick with covid (when a lot of people are refusing to wear masks, or get vaccinated) alllll for a sub-standard minimum wage that hasn't increased in a decade.

 

[Paul]

I tell you what I wouldn't do: continue to give tax breaks to wealthy people.
A millionaire would hardly get any value in getting an extra $10,000(arbitrary number) a year, compared to a person who struggles to pay for their child's lunch at school.
You said you were in favor of UBI, lets start there.
But then again there is a lot of pushback in certain groups on the right. Calling them freeloaders and other things.

Anyone see recently how a lot of republican governors cut back on covid relief/unemployment in some (misguided) attempt to "entice" people to get back to work (to these low paying jobs) - The real issue is a lot of people didn't want to risk getting sick with covid (when a lot of people are refusing to wear masks, or get vaccinated) alllll for a sub-standard minimum wage that hasn't increased in a decade.

As i said: The Dems want to give massive economical help whereas the Reps think they need to work hard. Like everything there must be a happy medium.

BTW, most of the modern day oligarchs that are billionaires are in favor of UBI and are quite liberal. The days of the old fashion highly conservative billionaire are going away. Once people go on UBI they will stop climbing the socioeconomic ladder, but thats is the price we will pay.

 

[V Chip]

A family is also the accumulation of multiple generational behavioral traits such as work ethic, inclination for academics, art, etc. I am the combination of all my ancestors. I may have some behaviors that I acquired from a great grand parent I never met.

Behaviors are not inherited. They are taught.

There is a reason as to why the children of East Asian and Indian immigrants have a higher socio-economic and educational status than whites in America. Generational wealth is much more than just cash. IN America we also see how Jamaican immigrants thrive ahead of black Americans even though they also had slavery. However, Jamaicans do not have the generational baggage (memes) of black Americans.

Oh dear.

 

[V Chip]

BTW, most of the modern day oligarchs that are billionaires are in favor of UBI and are quite liberal.

This is not true.

 

[brandon]

The poverty rate has been declining regardless of which administration was in power.

That's not really what your chart shows though, is it?

The Non-Hispanic White line roughly stays the same, so we'll toss that out. The other lines tend to follow similar slopes.

• The first drop is from 1965-1969, which follows the Johnson presidency (a Democrat).
• The second significant drop is not until around 1993-2000, which follows the Clinton presidency (a Democrat).
• The final drop begins around 2010 and carries through 2019, which is the Obama presidency (a Democrat) plus 3 years of Trump riding the Obama trajectory.

With the exception of the Trump presidency, all Republican presidents on your chart presided over stagnated or rising poverty.