Law Enforcement Reform Thread (formerly Defund the Police) (1 Viewer)

[First Time Poster]

So I got busy the other day with the intention to revisit this topic and answer some of the responses put forward but I realized the thread was deleted. But, I felt we had good dialogue happening before I left so I wanted to restart the topic to get the conversation going again. We started some dialogue about it on the liberal board but I feel this topic transcends party lines so I'm making a MCB thread. Post #2, or my next post, is the post I made on the liberal board when asked to elaborate how I felt.

 

[Lapaz]

Okay. Let me rephrase the question. Are cops killing a disproportionate amount of violent black arrestees compared to violent white arrestees? If so, show the proof. No one has shown that proof.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Okay. Let me rephrase the question. Are cops killing a disproportionate amount of violent black arrestees compared to violent white arrestees? If so, show the proof. No one has shown that proof.

The quoted post reeks of cherry picking by trying to limit a complex discussion to a very narrow and over simplified aspect of it. If one has to so severely limit the scope of a discussion to make a point, then one's point is weak and probably not valid.

People keep giving you reasonable answers to your questions and you keep narrowing down the question. Fairness dictates that you start answering questions of your own.

MT15 showed proof that cops kill a disproportionate percentage of unarmed black people than they do any other group.

How do you explain the disproportionate killing of unarmed black men by cops?

Additionally, both of these can be true at the same time:

1. Cops don't kill a disproportionate amount of "violent black arrestees."
2. When cops do kill "violent black arrestees," it's often a result of systemic racism.

Nothing you have said or shown proves that those two things above can't both be true. Show the proof that they can't both be true.

 

[The moose]

Okay. Let me rephrase the question. Are cops killing a disproportionate amount of violent black arrestees compared to violent white arrestees? If so, show the proof. No one has shown that proof.

Well we certainly have video of them killing plenty of non violent people of color all over.

We are not talking about people that are shooting at cops here. We are talking about minor infractions humans are loosing life over.

I have passed a bunk twenty unknowingly and not taken a beating cuffed or died as a white guy. They asked where it came from and I was on my merry way just out twenty bucks.

Guess what was found sleeping in my car. They did not play the game so long of trying to get me to slip up as they did with that poor guy in Georgia.

Was overworked and decided it was safer to take a nap than fall asleep behind the wheel. Was never a question if I would die.

You keep wanting to change the subject here black people are loosing their life over nonsense stops or minor infractions all the time. A thing as a white guy would not happen to you or me.

Let's look at it another way. Minor infractions that are directed towards the black community keep them poor and in trouble, effect their ability to get jobs or housing because of the record. That is racist and the least of the bad things that come from policing policy that must change. I personally have done two of the exact things that two men lost their lives over and mine was never remotely in danger.

I really don't know what is so hard for you to get.

 

[Lapaz]

Well we certainly have video of them killing plenty of non violent people of color all over.

We are not talking about people that are shooting at cops here. We are talking about minor infractions humans are loosing life over.

I have passed a bunk twenty unknowingly and not taken a beating cuffed or died as a white guy. They asked where it came from and I was on my merry way just out twenty bucks.

Guess what was found sleeping in my car. They did not play the game so long of trying to get me to slip up as they did with that poor guy in Georgia.

Was overworked and decided it was safer to take a nap than fall asleep behind the wheel. Was never a question if I would die.

You keep wanting to change the subject here black people are loosing their life over nonsense stops or minor infractions all the time. A thing as a white guy would not happen to you or me.

Let's look at it another way. Minor infractions that are directed towards the black community keep them poor and in trouble, effect their ability to get jobs or housing because of the record. That is racist and the least of the bad things that come from policing policy that must change. I personally have done two of the exact things that two men lost their lives over and mine was never remotely in danger.

I really don't know what is so hard for you to get.

The problem with relying on videos is that they are anecdotal. If the data shows that deaths are proportional based on crimes committed, then it means the white killings are not getting the publicity, unless the FBI is falsifying data.

Regarding more black unarmed people being killed as a proportion of arrestees, that could be related to racism, but somehow things balance out, since whites are still killed proportionally per violent arrestee. I'm referring to about 1M violent white arrestees to about 0.5M violent black arrestees, of which about 500 whites and 250 blacks were killed by police. Both are 2 to 1 ratios, so they are proportional killings. What accounts for the balancing out?

I know that there are still many in the media asserting that blacks are killed disproportionately, but that misses the arrestee point. Killing bias has to be judged on arrest ratios, not population ratios. I think it is obviously not true that blacks are being targeted for killing. You may believe that there are many other problems in which blacks are targeted, but I'm focussed on debunking that killing narrative. My take is the only reason y'all won't answer the simple question about whether black violent arrestees are killed disproportionately, is because that killing narrative is wrong.

 

[LA - L.A.]

Regarding more black unarmed people being killed as a proportion of arrestees, that could be related to racism, but somehow things balance out, since whites are still killed proportionally per violent arrestee.

What? This makes no sense. Unarmed blacks being killed at a disproportionate rate could be related to racism, but that possible racism is balanced out by the proportionate killing of violent arrestees?

By that logic, acts of racism don't exist at all because racist acts are balance out by all of the non-racist acts.

By that logic, rain doesn't really exist at all because the days that it does rain is balanced out by all the days there is no rain.

And you still haven't proven that proportionate killing of violent arrestees means that no police killings are of violent arrestees is ever a result of systemic racism. That's merely your opinion.

What's your opinion of white supremacists? Do you think they are systemically racist?

 

[Ayo]

I’m case anyone else is interested.

today, 4:00-5:30

 

[brandon]

The 80% number was an assumption that most police killings occurred during arrests of murderers, which can't be affected by overpolicing.

What evidence do you have to support this assumption other than your own opinion?

Seeing as your entire subsequent argument hinges on this assumption, it's pretty important that this assumption be more than just what you happen to think.

You're arguing a lot for the use of "data," but on the most fundamental tenet of your argument, you just pulled a number out of thin air.

Am I missing something?

 

[The moose]

The problem with relying on videos is that they are anecdotal. If the data shows that deaths are proportional based on crimes committed, then it means the white killings are not getting the publicity, unless the FBI is falsifying data.

Regarding more black unarmed people being killed as a proportion of arrestees, that could be related to racism, but somehow things balance out, since whites are still killed proportionally per violent arrestee. I'm referring to about 1M violent white arrestees to about 0.5M violent black arrestees, of which about 500 whites and 250 blacks were killed by police. Both are 2 to 1 ratios, so they are proportional killings. What accounts for the balancing out?

I know that there are still many in the media asserting that blacks are killed disproportionately, but that misses the arrestee point. Killing bias has to be judged on arrest ratios, not population ratios. I think it is obviously not true that blacks are being targeted for killing. You may believe that there are many other problems in which blacks are targeted, but I'm focussed on debunking that killing narrative. My take is the only reason y'all won't answer the simple question about whether black violent arrestees are killed disproportionately, is because that killing narrative is wrong.

You and others live in denial.

I can use racist policy that helped my poor German immigrant family off the farm that was not allowed for the black community. Hell the Oklahoma land rush where the farm cam from was not allowed to people of color.

Example grandfather fought in WW2. He then was given cheap arse loan for a house. Then house became asset that was used to borrow against start his own business. Wealth he accumulated was not even an option for vets of color.

You can put as many stats you want out. They don't mean squat if you don't accept the racist policy of our government that caused the inequality and still is. You can post all you like about crime in the ungodly poor black community. If you can't see the reasons why they are poor and don't have the opportunity of white people I feel sorry for you.

These are facts man.

 

[Ayo]

White-based affirmative action for land and property began 400 years ago. Before the US was even the US.

It’s multi-systemic. It’s historic. It’s inequitable. And it’s racist.

 

[JimEverett]

It's very much a complicated subject. And everything is inter-related - policing policies, use of force policies, implicit bias, historical racism, institutional racism, crime, rehabilitation, education, and so on. I'm not sure you can address one part and expect great results.

I think the discussion and exchanging proposals is a good place to start.

I'm generally of the opinion that high incarceration rates does not prevent crime or preserve law and order. I also don't think it's the police's job to prevent future crime. I also think anytime a cop stops a private citizen it is a temporary (and lawful) suspension of civil rights, and is therefore a situation that can become very tense - so it should be used very sparingly. And then a very strict protocol needs to be followed when a cop is detaining someone.

There seems to be some research that funding community organizations instead of more patrols is more effective at lowering crime rates. I haven't read the paper though.

I imagine, though not sure, that high incarceration rates can pass some point at which every additional prisoner will result in a certain increase in crime over the long term - given that being incarcerated greatly diminishes a person's ability to get a job once released.

On this subject, I have long thought along the lines that Lapaz is bringing up in this thread. But, I think right now it is less important to talk about the reasons or even the extent of a problem and address the broader issue which is, I think, the U.S. will be better off the less people we incarcerate, the less people who are put into the criminal system, the less people who have interactions with police (at least in any sort of confrotational way, broadly speaking). This is where I can get behind at least some of the "Defund Police" movement. In fact, I think it is very easy to spin "Defund Police" as being pro-police. We place far too much of a burden on police officers to deal with the results of broader social failures and lack of incentive/resources to deal with broad elements of the population.

Oddly enough, I think we have made some progress on the issues - one quick example is that incarceration rates are falling. But I am not sure that is the result of any sort of real reform

 

[Ayo]

In fact, I think it is very easy to spin "Defund Police" as being pro-police. We place far too much of a burden on police officers to deal with the results of broader social failures and lack of incentive/resources to deal with broad elements of the population.

This was precisely the angle in the conversation with the officer that I mentioned earlier in the thread.

so many things they are called on to do, they have no business or experience or qualifications in doing. And they know this.

this should be reflected in municipal and county/parish, and state budgets

 

[Ayo]

I posted this because I thought it was funny. Clearly intended to be sarcastic, humorous.

 

[Lapaz]

What evidence do you have to support this assumption other than your own opinion?

Seeing as your entire subsequent argument hinges on this assumption, it's pretty important that this assumption be more than just what you happen to think.

You're arguing a lot for the use of "data," but on the most fundamental tenet of your argument, you just pulled a number out of thin air.

Am I missing something?

I revised that assumption when I believe MT posted the actual killings by crime type of arrest. Unfortunately some of you haven't read my revised posts, and keep replying to the original assumption. That assumption wasn't that outlandish because the actual data shows that over 82% of killings occur when arresting people for violent crimes. It was way off on the percent that occured for just murders, but I was correct that the vast majority of killings occur when handling violent criminals.

 

[Lapaz]

You and others live in denial.

I can use racist policy that helped my poor German immigrant family off the farm that was not allowed for the black community. Hell the Oklahoma land rush where the farm cam from was not allowed to people of color.

Example grandfather fought in WW2. He then was given cheap arse loan for a house. Then house became asset that was used to borrow against start his own business. Wealth he accumulated was not even an option for vets of color.

You can put as many stats you want out. They don't mean squat if you don't accept the racist policy of our government that caused the inequality and still is. You can post all you like about crime in the ungodly poor black community. If you can't see the reasons why they are poor and don't have the opportunity of white people I feel sorry for you.

These are facts man.

I live in a world where facts matter. Feeling that cops are biased to kill blacks disproportionately doesn't make it so. Just because I'm arguing that the vast majority of cops are not so racist as to kill blacks disproportionately, doesn't mean that I'm under the impression that racism doesn't exist. You will not find a post where I've said that racism doesn't exists. Racism factors into many things, but I don't think it leads to disproportionate killings of blacks. It is proportionate to violent arrestees, not the race of the arrestee. I have said repeatedly that there are problems that need to be remedied, but I want to dispel the notion that cops are biased to killing blacks disproportionately. I'm still waiting for the facts that support that. It's an extraordinary claim that I've heard and read. Here is an article in U.S. News on 3 JUN 2020 making that assertion, but as usual it ignores the percentages of each race committing the violent crimes:

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/data-show-deaths-from-police-violence-disproportionately-affect-people-of-color

I'm open to changing my mind, but I don't think there are facts that support that extraordinary belief if you consider the racial makeup of violent arrestees. It makes sense to look at violent arrestees because that's over 82% of the victims of cop killings. Maybe there is a lot of unjustified killings in the less than 18% of non-violent arrestees that are killed, but that constitutes less than 50 blacks killed during arrests for non-violent crimes, out out of over 2,000,000 annually arrested (I rounded down since I don't feel like looking it up again). Without looking at each of those roughly 50 cases individually, we have no idea what provoked the killing. Some were probably due to a racist cop, but I'm certain that many more were due to provocative and/or violent action taken towards the cop that forced the cop to defend himself. I'm sure there are numerous people killed unjustly, but it is a small number. I would love that number to be 0, but that will never happen in the heated world of arrests. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get it lower, but I also think it is far more dangerous to believe cops are even remotely as dangerous as violent criminals, like some believe in that neighborhood in Minneapolis.

 

[Lapaz]

I imagine, though not sure, that high incarceration rates can pass some point at which every additional prisoner will result in a certain increase in crime over the long term - given that being incarcerated greatly diminishes a person's ability to get a job once released.

On this subject, I have long thought along the lines that Lapaz is bringing up in this thread. But, I think right now it is less important to talk about the reasons or even the extent of a problem and address the broader issue which is, I think, the U.S. will be better off the less people we incarcerate, the less people who are put into the criminal system, the less people who have interactions with police (at least in any sort of confrotational way, broadly speaking). This is where I can get behind at least some of the "Defund Police" movement. In fact, I think it is very easy to spin "Defund Police" as being pro-police. We place far too much of a burden on police officers to deal with the results of broader social failures and lack of incentive/resources to deal with broad elements of the population.

Oddly enough, I think we have made some progress on the issues - one quick example is that incarceration rates are falling. But I am not sure that is the result of any sort of real reform

I completely agree with reducing incarcerations, particularly for drug possession, and I also agree with using social workers to engage non-violent people, but until we know that a jurisdiction has enough funding to train and handle the remaining demand, and promote and fund the good cops, I don't support defunding. First show the demand is met or lowered, and then you can reduce their funds.

 

[Ayo]

today, 4:00-5:30

So, I can't really capture the entire Zoom panel, but I wanted to try and list a few of the topics that they hit on that were worth mentioning as they came up:

• it opened with each panelist talking about how the individually, emotionally talked about their responses to the current situation
  • to summarize, roughly, there was this bittersweet tension between hope and optimism and fatigue and anger. The positives that is this is a moment not seen since the Motown movement and, before that, the fight for emancipation. That so many people, from so many walks of life opening their minds to listen and see the racism. But also anger that it should not have taken this long. Fatigue from fighting this for so long, by themselves.
• The history of agreements between district attorneys and prosecutors with law enforcement to get deals that oppress Black Americans
• a focus on how prison systems and staff extend the racist arm of the law. Examples cited included:
  • sexual assault perpetrated against Black inmates by white staff members
  • relationships of cooperation between white staff members and incarcerated white supremacists
  • the rumor-mongering of Blacks threatening white supremacists, even when unfounded, to lead to instances of physical harm against Black inmates
  • security staff members equipping white supremacists with actual weapons while Black inmates are having to fashion their own, cruder weapons (e.g. shanks)
• A reference to reading James Baldwin's "Fifth Avenue, Uptown"
• a reference to Connick vs. Thompson (New Orleans case)
• a really interesting point that white people want to be the victims and the oppressors - white people in the US having a tendency to want it all, across all facets of society. And even this - which is a sort of arrogance on the part of white people. The need to be victims, oppressors, and saviors. One panelist found this odd and frustrating.
• The role that police unions and fraternal orders of police play in protecting these officers
• the reality that these organizations receive preferential treatment by default in local and state negotiations, as if they are not at fault and don't have to 'prove themselves' as worthy or even competent
• Reparations in society - discussions around education, material support. Attacking homelessness and houselessness and healthcare. These are bare expectations.
• Reparations re: defunding in law enforcement - look at the funding agencies to transform punishment to rehabilitation. Moving away from punishment and torture designs to things that can work through knowledge and building up when possible
• research partnerships established with police themselves - publicly funded support needs more access to publicly funded services, like education and the police. But the police are the most resistant to this
  • one example that was specifically cited was the disinclination and refusal to participate in studies to examine the efficacy of body camera usage in policing
• Shaming and "internet justice" isn't really justice. It doesn't do anything for the marginalized peoples but it contributes to a sense of justice that whites external to the trauma and punishment of Blacks feel is happening, but doesn't actually impact on the oppression and marginalization
• State and local legislatures need to be a bigger focus - not just Federal, which dominates too much of the discussion
• Emphasis on jails rather than prisons when it comes to the racialized nature of the systemic injustice
• The debates over Confederate Monuments - let's talk about not just taking down, but what merits going up. Why can't abolitionists be memorialized? This could be reparations. Because it's not just a discussion about what comes down but also what goes up. That's inspiring.
• A police officer responsible for the torturing of over 100 Black men becoming part of the Chicago school curriculum, so that AP US History includes things like that and lynching - that history about these things exist. Lynchings as terrorism. The frame of "white criminality" is part of curriculum reparations
• The history of police protecting "stuff" and defending "stuff" and investigating the recovery of "stuff" and this is usually white capital and property, as opposed to feeling like the police, as an institution, is not protecting Black People - it's wielded against Black people, in fact, often in favor of white people's "stuff." So the hierarchy is that white people's 'stuff' is more important than Black people
• Police culture > police individuals. The state (law and policy), the legal (lawyers who manage it) combine to create a system is 'reinvigorated' through a line of knowledge - even created and re-created by academics. We need to understand the current context and what rebellion would look like (it's not 1799 in Haiti). You can be amicable with a police officer - even a Black one in their community - but the individual is also separate from the system and the culture. We are trying to address the latter, not the latter
• Good cops vs. Bad cops - what do good cops look like? Are they whistle blowers? Then where are they? And if they cannot step forward out of fear - which is the assumption - that's the problem. How can we argue the good outnumber the bad?
  • example: a group of retired Black officers and members of the Fraternal Order of Police took a knee, symbolically, and there was no white officer who supported them
• People are too focused on the killings of cops but we need to look at things like the 13th amendment and it's about the wider sense of what the word "law" means and what it refers to - law as horizon rather than a set of tactics
• Discussion on what a post-abolition world would look like for each of the four panelists
  • one example is that we turn to institutions to trust rather than people, and we trust the political structure and the legal structure and the law enforcement structure, but we don't look at individuals and their stories. Because we don't 'trust and care' in one another - instead, we trust institutions
  • but a couple of panelists said that we don't know and that's the toughest challenge - we've never had it, we've never really seen it. And, as a result, without a vision or a goal, it is difficult to work toward something specifically
  • there was a collective skepticism when it comes to 'The State'

Alright, I tried to capture as much as I could, but it was difficult to listen and record some impressions.

Thanks.

 

[Lapaz]

What? This makes no sense. Unarmed blacks being killed at a disproportionate rate could be related to racism, but that possible racism is balanced out by the proportionate killing of violent arrestees?

By that logic, acts of racism don't exist at all because racist acts are balance out by all of the non-racist acts.

By that logic, rain doesn't really exist at all because the days that it does rain is balanced out by all the days there is no rain.

And you still haven't proven that proportionate killing of violent arrestees means that no police killings are of violent arrestees is ever a result of systemic racism. That's merely your opinion.

What's your opinion of white supremacists? Do you think they are systemically racist?

Almost everything you said doesn’t resemble anything I’ve said. I have not said that no killings are related to racism, but I do believe they have to be a very small number, because whites and blacks are killed proportionally to violent arrest ratios. It may be that whites are also killed for racial reasons to result in that balance. It may be that some cops kill due to racial hatred of blacks but there are cops that are less likely to kill blacks than whites. I just know the result is that it balances out.

 

[The moose]

I live in a world where facts matter. Feeling that cops are biased to kill blacks disproportionately doesn't make it so. Just because I'm arguing that the vast majority of cops are not so racist as to kill blacks disproportionately, doesn't mean that I'm under the impression that racism doesn't exist. You will not find a post where I've said that racism doesn't exists. Racism factors into many things, but I don't think it leads to disproportionate killings of blacks. It is proportionate to violent arrestees, not the race of the arrestee. I have said repeatedly that there are problems that need to be remedied, but I want to dispel the notion that cops are biased to killing blacks disproportionately. I'm still waiting for the facts that support that. It's an extraordinary claim that I've heard and read. Here is an article in U.S. News on 3 JUN 2020 making that assertion, but as usual it ignores the percentages of each race committing the violent crimes:

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2020-06-03/data-show-deaths-from-police-violence-disproportionately-affect-people-of-color

I'm open to changing my mind, but I don't think there are facts that support that extraordinary belief if you consider the racial makeup of violent arrestees. It makes sense to look at violent arrestees because that's over 82% of the victims of cop killings. Maybe there is a lot of unjustified killings in the less than 18% of non-violent arrestees that are killed, but that constitutes less than 50 blacks killed during arrests for non-violent crimes, out out of over 2,000,000 annually arrested (I rounded down since I don't feel like looking it up again). Without looking at each of those roughly 50 cases individually, we have no idea what provoked the killing. Some were probably due to a racist cop, but I'm certain that many more were due to provocative and/or violent action taken towards the cop that forced the cop to defend himself. I'm sure there are numerous people killed unjustly, but it is a small number. I would love that number to be 0, but that will never happen in the heated world of arrests. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to get it lower, but I also think it is far more dangerous to believe cops are even remotely as dangerous as violent criminals, like some believe in that neighborhood in Minneapolis.

Since you like facts African Americans are only thirteen percent of the population yet they are thirty four percent of all incarcerated men in this country.

That is cuz you like facts and numbers.

So do you think to have that major difference in incarcerated African American males might just meant that they seem to be targeted? Or just staggering amounts of criminals seem to be African Americans? And it is staggering!

These are the numbers that have to change because they have obviously been targeted for years and years.

You can keep beating that dead horse of violent arrestees if ya like but it obviously is a dead horse.

I am not saying all cops are racist or even a bunch. The system is set up to feed off of the poor and middle class. When it is it targets African Americans.

Don't know where you live but I am more than sure it is the same there. Just the example of speed traps are never in the great ends of town but they are always in the lower to middle class neighborhoods. Targets certain people and African Americans have a huge amount living at or below the poverty rate and in the middle class.

That is a simple practice that I know you see that is racist unless you live in Maine!