Critical race theory (2 Viewers)

Paul said:

Racism is real and still exists. However, if we only pay attention to the negatives and ignore the positives there will be nihilism, anger, depression, PTSD etc.

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I'm trying to figure out what the "positives" are of racism. Can you tell me what those are?

Paul said:

Trumplicanism is a symptom of polarization. If one side goes far left the other side goes far right. I am worried about this country.

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I'm trying to figure out what far-left events resulted in Trump being elected president. A few decades ago Obama would have been considered a republican. That to me speaks of how the far right has swung on it's own. People like Rush, Newt and outlets like faux news and Trump himself have only stoked the flames of this - with FUD, outright lies and conspiracy theories. My personal opinion is a lot of republicans could not stand that their "boss" was a black man. I live in the south, so I got to hear a lot of (white) people's opinions of that they thought of Obama. The vast majority was nothing but hate due to his skin color. They had no real clue about his policies, it didn't matter. All they saw was a black man that was in a position of authority - and they didn't like that at all.

zztop said:

I'm trying to figure out what the "positives" are of racism. Can you tell me what those are?



I'm trying to figure out what far-left events resulted in Trump being elected president. A few decades ago Obama would have been considered a republican. That to me speaks of how the far right has swung on it's own. People like Rush, Newt and outlets like faux news and Trump himself have only stoked the flames of this - with FUD, outright lies and conspiracy theories. My personal opinion is a lot of republicans could not stand that their "boss" was a black man. I live in the south, so I got to hear a lot of (white) people's opinions of that they thought of Obama. The vast majority was nothing but hate due to his skin color. They had no real clue about his policies, it didn't matter. All they saw was a black man that was in a position of authority - and they didn't like that at all.

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I'm pretty sure he's not saying there's anything positive about racism. What he's saying has there has been positive progress in race relations in the last however many years. Which I think is true in some respects. We're making progress in some ways, and have more room to get better in others.

I don't know about far left events, but Hillary was not an ideal opponent for Trump for a host of reasons. I don't think the general population has swung more left or right as much as politicians have narrowed their talking points to push people further into their corners for their perceived teams or tribes. These days it feels more like we're supporting a particular party more than love for our people and country.

DaveXA said:

I'm pretty sure he's not saying there's anything positive about racism. What he's saying has there has been positive progress in race relations in the last however many years. Which I think is true in some respects. We're making progress in some ways, and have more room to get better in others.

I don't know about far left events, but Hillary was not an ideal opponent for Trump for a host of reasons. I don't think the general population has swung more left or right as much as politicians have narrowed their talking points to push people further into their corners for their perceived teams or tribes. These days it feels more like we're supporting a particular party more than love for our people and country.

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Exactly!

Paul said:

Sorry about that. I lived in the Northeast and encountered racism too in the 1970s. However, the 70s were different than the 50s just as 2021 is way different than 1970.

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Different, yes. But, you said most white people knew they were wrong in the 1970s. That is just not true. If we are going to have this conversation, we have to be honest with the facts at points in time.

This looks a little like goal post moving. That may not be your intent, but that is why you have to be careful what you write.

Sandman said:

Different, yes. But, you said most white people knew they were wrong in the 1970s. That is just not true. If we are going to have this conversation, we have to be honest with the facts at points in time.

This looks a little like goal post moving. That may not be your intent, but that is why you have to be careful what you write.

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I still believe most people in America know racism is evil. However, many practice racism unknowingly due to ignorance.

bird said:

OK.

Your first definition as noted by Brandon is your philosophy. Individualism in this country is a part of theomythology. As for government taking care of the citizens this is RW-speak. You simply didn’t use the words “nanny state”.

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Individualism was another prominent theme of the Enlightenment. By this, we mean the idea that man is endowed with certain liberties or rights. These rights were believed to have been granted by God and/or nature. Enlightenment figures typically espoused ideas of equality and human dignity.

bird said:

Equality is, imo and thus my philosophy, value. Jefferson’s rhetoric applies here. His rhetoric on God-given rights does not. There are no God-given rights. Rights only exist in the context of the body politic. See Hannah Arendt in “On Revolution”.

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I am agnostic, but I can see how anyone could reference a source like that to make a point. IMO, rights are just a few and have to do with freedom. Once we are outside the realm of freedom there are no rights,

bird said:

Opportunity issues derive from real to artificial constraints. Real constraints are things like physical barriers. These impede opportunity for those with physical issues. Artificial constraints are legal, social and economic in nature. Jim Crow is an obvious one.

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We evolved in tribes and group preference has been a perennial problem in world history. In this era many are working very hard to change that. America is still an experiment, a work in progress with many past errors. The tribalism is still here and it may take a few more centuries before the DNA changes.

bird said:

Equity does not mean equal outcome. And humans do not live in a hierarchy of talent and competency. We only need look at the previous holder of the highest office in the land to lay that to rest.

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Trump may be an butt crevasse and not the brightest, but he figure out how to be POTUS. There is some talent in there, It is call the talent of knowing how to bullshirt and say what the public wants to hear. All politicians have a bit of Trump in them. Trump is a narcissist! Many politicians are narcissists.

bird said:

Humans live in a society wherein groupism is the primary method of determining who is friend or foe.

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When a member of one tribe encounter a member of another tribe there was instant distrust. I suspect we evolved that way for survival. Those that distrusted the most passed more DNA.

bird said:

The combination of money talks, I’ll scratch your back/you’ll scratch mine, having a “rabbi”, ”legacy”, quid pro quo etc ad nauseum results in people being praised and glorified for talent they lack simply due to circumstances, mostly accumulation of money. Expertise and especially the lack thereof is overlooked because the wealthy person must have knowledge, wisdom and talent to solve any problem when the reality is they may be no more competent than the next person.

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I agree!

bird said:

Your response regarding the left is empty and not well thought out. Pinochet, death squads, fascism (which started as a reaction against capitalism and came to power when conservatives thought they could control them and so made common cause with them) are examples of the right having no limits on how far they will go. The RW stormed the capital on January 6 egged on by the incompetent and untalented hack who held the presidency previously.

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I do not disagree. I will also add that the Trump loyalists that stormed the capitol were a bunch of morons with no real plan. To make matters worse the Capitol police was extremely racist in assuming there would not be trouble because the protesters were white. If this had been a BLM protest security would have been greater.

bird said:

Unintended consequences applies to any bureaucracy. Your personal philosophy claims it applies particularly to government. A few things give lie to that. We can start with financial engineering. This almost crashed the world’s economy. Hyman Minsky knew this would happen and, in fact, many referred to the crash as a ”Minsky moment”.

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Agreed

bird said:

The key issue of the police function is that they are alleged to be part of the community while exercising power over the community due to the nature of the state having control over the levers of violence. What is interesting to notice is the concept of law and order. The second word is of greater importance. It harkens to “keeping them in their place.”

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I don't know about that. Sadly all nations need a police force.

bird said:

if conservative is to preserve old traditions then conservative is to oppose change and the advancement of man. Women voting was opposed. Blacks voting was opposed. Women working in any field deemed ”a man’s job” was opposed. Women or minorities holding office was opposed. The list is endless.

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Yes, conservatives are against change. This is not an intellectual process but mostly related to a personality trait A world where everybody is conservative would be stagnant. Progress is always needed and those tend to be risk takers and open to experience personality types. At the same time a world where there are no conservatives can become chaotic due to lack of norms and rules. Conservatives are sticklers to the written word and the rule of law.

Paul said:

I still believe most people in America know racism is evil. However, many practice racism unknowingly due to ignorance.

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Perhaps if racism in all it's forms and severities past and present were taught and shown in school people wouldn't be as ignorant of it and be much less likely to practice it?

Maybe you can even call it something like Crucial Race Teachings

Optimus Prime said:

Perhaps if racism in all it's forms and severities were taught and shown in school people wouldn't be as ignorant of it and be much less likely to practice it?

Maybe you can even call it something like Crucial Race Teachings

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They have been teaching this. It is an ongoing project. However, CRT teachings are a bit divisive. Otherwise, no problem!

Paul said:

I still believe most people in America know racism is evil. However, many practice racism unknowingly due to ignorance.

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“I know murder is evil, but I just can’t help myself.” Still murder.

White America as a whole doesn’t think there is a race problem c’mon.

we think that the KKK and neonazis are racists. They are the fringe we think.

we don’t consider having an irrational fear of a Black man being alone in an elevator with you is racist.

We don’t consider it racist to only lock up the Black hair care products at Walmart.

We say things like “They have BET. If we came out with WET they would scream racism from the hills.” And don’t think that is racist.

We don’t think it is racist that there were 1200 NG at the Capitol for the BLM protests but NONE for Trump’s failed coup attempt.

No most white people don’t think there is a racial problem. But most white people don’t live in reality. It’s too uncomfortable. so we make up realities that fit out view….. Ask Q. That clown made millions of idiots dance for months and they still won’t admit he was fake.

Sandman said:

“I know murder is evil, but I just can’t help myself.” Still murder.

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I would say 100% of people in the USA know murder is evil and yet we have murder. I agree.

CoolBrees said:

White America as a whole doesn’t think there is a race problem c’mon.

we think that the KKK and neonazis are racists. They are the fringe we think.

we don’t consider having an irrational fear of a Black man being alone in an elevator with you is racist.

We don’t consider it racist to only lock up the Black hair care products at Walmart.

We say things like “They have BET. If we came out with WET they would scream racism from the hills.” And don’t think that is racist.

We don’t think it is racist that there were 1200 NG at the Capitol for the BLM protests but NONE for Trump’s failed coup attempt.

No most white people don’t think there is a racial problem. But most white people don’t live in reality. It’s too uncomfortable. so we make up realities that fit out view….. Ask Q. That clown made millions of idiots dance for months and they still won’t admit he was fake.

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This is an excellent post! It points out the tribalism.
Tribalism is the mother of all "isms".

I want to hear suggestions to eradicate tribalism.

I have been enjoying the discussion the last few pages.

Paul said:

They have been teaching this. It is an ongoing project. However, CRT teachings are a bit divisive. Otherwise, no problem!

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So, I think the issue I have is that the whole discussion is based around something that is not well known, and for large parts of the population is defined by its opposition. Ie @Farb will say something like teaching children to hate America, and some races are better than others, and that white people should be ashamed of themselves is wrong. Well, duh, obviously. But it's taking it as fact that that is what is being taught to children, without a lot of evidence.

To be honest, I've never heard of CRT until a couple of months ago, but apparently, Republicans tried to make this a political issue a couple of years ago but it didn't catch on, but now it has.

As I understand it CRT is something of an academic discipline or framework that is taught in college history classes as a way of view American history, where race played a significant role. In that light, well, of course children should not be taught an advanced history course. To my knowledge there is no CRT curriculum at the elementary, middle or high school level.

So, based on that, it appears to me that the right does not want any sort of race related history taught to children. Which should be obviously wrong.

I think there's room to discuss how to talk about these issues in an age appropriate manner. But age appropriate does not mean hiding the truth or its consequences. And the truth is, laws and practices were created based on race in America's past, those laws and practices had harmful effects on the communities they targeted, and they still have consequences today.

UncleTrvlingJim said:

I have been enjoying the discussion the last few pages.



So, I think the issue I have is that the whole discussion is based around something that is not well known, and for large parts of the population is defined by its opposition. Ie @Farb will say something like teaching children to hate America, and some races are better than others, and that white people should be ashamed of themselves is wrong. Well, duh, obviously. But it's taking it as fact that that is what is being taught to children, without a lot of evidence.

To be honest, I've never heard of CRT until a couple of months ago, but apparently, Republicans tried to make this a political issue a couple of years ago but it didn't catch on, but now it has.

As I understand it CRT is something of an academic discipline or framework that is taught in college history classes as a way of view American history, where race played a significant role. In that light, well, of course children should not be taught an advanced history course. To my knowledge there is no CRT curriculum at the elementary, middle or high school level.

So, based on that, it appears to me that the right does not want any sort of race related history taught to children. Which should be obviously wrong.

I think there's room to discuss how to talk about these issues in an age appropriate manner. But age appropriate does not mean hiding the truth or its consequences. And the truth is, laws and practices were created based on race in America's past, those laws and practices had harmful effects on the communities they targeted, and they still have consequences today.

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OK, here is the manifesto of the proposed teaching of math curriculum in Oregon.

Here are a few quotes form the text:

Page 1

While primarily for math educa- tors, this text advocates for a collective approach to dismantling white supremacy.


Page 5

As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy. They are as follows: (critique of white people)

• Perfectionism
• Sense of Urgency
• Defensiveness
• Quantity Over Quality
• Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism
• Either/Or Thinking
• Power Hoarding
• Fear of Open Conflict
• Individualism
• Only One Right Way
• Progress is Bigger, More
• Objectivity
• Right to Comfort



Page 7 (Critique of how whites teach math)

There is a greater focus on getting the "right" answer than understanding concepts and reasoning.

Rigor is expressed only in difficulty.

Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways.


The curriculum assumes that kids need to be taught math with a system that is designed for POC children. It assumes that math is different according to the culture or skin color of the teacher. I am all for trying something new in the teaching of math, but the CRT manifesto is filled with derogatory terms that make people uncomfortable.

Paul said:

OK, here is the manifesto of the proposed teaching of math curriculum in Oregon.

https://equitablemath.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/11/1_STRIDE1.pdf

Here are a few quotes form the text:

Page 1

While primarily for math educa- tors, this text advocates for a collective approach to dismantling white supremacy.


Page 5

As a visual indicator, we italicize the terms used to identify white supremacy. They are as follows: (critique of white people)

• Perfectionism
• Sense of Urgency
• Defensiveness
• Quantity Over Quality
• Worship of the Written Word • Paternalism
• Either/Or Thinking
• Power Hoarding
• Fear of Open Conflict
• Individualism
• Only One Right Way
• Progress is Bigger, More
• Objectivity
• Right to Comfort



Page 7 (Critique of how whites teach math)

There is a greater focus on getting the "right" answer than understanding concepts and reasoning.

Rigor is expressed only in difficulty.

Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways.


The curriculum assumes that kids need to be taught math with a system that is designed for POC children. It assumes that math is different according to the culture or skin color of the teacher. I am all for trying something new in the teaching of math, but the CRT manifesto is filled with derogatory terms that make people uncomfortable.

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So, I have a couple of thoughts, and then I'm off to dinner.

First, who is equitablemath.org? I don't see the words CRT anywhere in that document, why do you believe this is CRT? Not saying it is or isn't, but going back to the discussion of CRT, I feel like it needs to be defined.

Next, I did just quickly read through what you posted, and disagree with the way you characterized the sections. You said page 5 was a critique of white people. I don't see that at all. So that is really weird. It says quite clearly that these concepts hurts white people as well as POC. It then goes on to list characteristics that they say perpetuate white supremacy. I do think they do a pretty poor job of explaining why they think those things perpetuate white supremancy. But there is nothing in there that criticizes white people implicitly or explicitly.

I also you said page 7 criticizes the way white people teach math. And I do not think it does at all. It criticizes the way math is taught. Earlier on, they even said that some of these things are taught in classrooms led by POC. They are saying that the way math is taught make it harder for POC to succeed. They don't provide evidence of this, but their recommendations also aren't really bad, and I quite like a lot of them (ie emphasis of learning why a particular answer is correct instead of brute memorization).

Finally, it doesn't say that math needs to be taught differently based on skin color - they are quite clear that they think everyone should be taught math this way. They do not do a great job of proving why they think the way math is taught perpetuates white supremacy, but there is nothing in there that says white people are bad, or anything like that.

I'm quite confused about the people who claim CRT is only taught in college. Here are a few examples of CRT in public schools and most examples include the source documents.

Nope.

It was nice while it lasted.