Biden Tracker (5 Viewers)

GMRfellowtraveller said:

not proposing anything really (this was more darkness cursing than candle lighting)
i'm saying that "inclusion" is the wrong approach bc you're bringing someone into a broken system instead of fixing the system
BUT
the fix would be something like (let's just use the NFL) get a 'representative sample' of your players, trainers, staff and coaches and invest them with real power over hire/fire/promotion/retention, et al practices
nobody in upper management or ownership has any veto power

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You do realize that the example you gave of "representative samples" having real power over hiring, firing, promoting or retaining decisions in a company or organization has the very real potential to be abused or manipulated as just mere Machiavellian power-grabbing or filtering or singling out other players, staff, or coaches maybe a few highly-placed types on these committees don't like for personal reasons, or disagree with politically and some of them use their power to demonize and unfairly criticize them and turning their friends and co-workers against them with lies, half-truths, unsubstantiated gossip bullshirt that one rampantly overhears in work environments.

This same sort of abuse of power dynamic combined with ego conflicts happens in unions all the time when union heads or supervisors single out a few unionized(or non-unionized) workers they dont like personally or have this deep-seated ego clash against them because they don't kiss their arses sufficiently enough or they disagree politically on some issues, not because their not hard, dutiful workers who get along well with most of their co-workers, employees, and don't possess negative, counter-productive attitude on-the-job.

Saintman2884 said:

You do realize that the example you gave of "representative samples" having real power over hiring, firing, promoting or retaining decisions in a company or organization has the very real potential to be abused or manipulated as just mere Machiavellian power-grabbing or filtering or singling out other players, staff, or coaches maybe a few highly-placed types on these committees don't like for personal reasons, or disagree with politically and some of them use their power to demonize and unfairly criticize them and turning their friends and co-workers against them with lies, half-truths, unsubstantiated gossip bullshirt that one rampantly overhears in work environments.

This same sort of abuse of power dynamic combined with ego conflicts happens in unions all the time when union heads or supervisors single out a few unionized(or non-unionized) workers they dont like personally or have this deep-seated ego clash against them because they don't kiss their arses sufficiently enough or they disagree politically on some issues, not because their not hard, dutiful workers who get along well with most of their co-workers, employees, and don't possess negative, counter-productive attitude on-the-job.

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nope
i never said the 'representative sample' would become defacto management - it would be an ad hoc committee
it's informative that your union bashing is about unions aping management - which is exactly why you should have a non-managerial fix to a problem that management culture perpetuates

as you rightly allude, the problem is with Power - the solution is to create ways to divest Power so actual change can occur
thank you

GMRfellowtraveller said:

nope
i never said the 'representative sample' would become defacto management - it would be an ad hoc committee
it's informative that your union bashing is about unions aping management - which is exactly why you should have a non-managerial fix to a problem that management culture perpetuates

as you rightly allude, the problem is with Power - the solution is to create ways to divest Power so actual change can occur
thank you

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Can you explain the problem with specific examples?

B4YOU said:

Can you explain the problem with specific examples?

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i was getting ready to launch into a convoluted hypothetical (i don't want to be too specific with instances i am aware of atm)
but i want to be sure i am answering your question (and i'm getting ready to get on mu commute so this won't be until later)

do you mean the 'problem' with DEI as i was describing earlier or something from my response to 2884?

GMRfellowtraveller said:

i was getting ready to launch into a convoluted hypothetical (i don't want to be too specific with instances i am aware of atm)
but i want to be sure i am answering your question (and i'm getting ready to get on mu commute so this won't be until later)

do you mean the 'problem' with DEI as i was describing earlier or something from my response to 2884?

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Not to speak for B4you but I'm looking for examples as well. More towards, how do you get from point A to point B in regards to organizations to divest power. I'm not sure that's even possible. No organization is going to surrender its power completely and start over. That would be impractical.

How do you translate what you're suggesting needs to happen into something realistic and achievable? It just strikes me as more of a fantasy than something that could happen in a reasonable period of time.

And this is coming from someone who thinks justice, equality and fairness should be a foundational part of our thinking.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...ers-not-confident-joe-biden-is-up-to-the-job/

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pu..._hasn_t_held_white_house_press_conference_yet

I know a few on here would not like the first link so I have provided the link to the poll itself, it is, however behind a paywall.

GMRfellowtraveller said:

i was getting ready to launch into a convoluted hypothetical (i don't want to be too specific with instances i am aware of atm)
but i want to be sure i am answering your question (and i'm getting ready to get on mu commute so this won't be until later)

do you mean the 'problem' with DEI as i was describing earlier or something from my response to 2884?

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With DEI from post #207. I’m not sure I grasp the premise on inclusion failing when orgs are diverse.

The NFL lacks vertical diversity. However, they may be considered inclusive as players, coaches, and management are on committees for rules. For hiring, the Rooney rule ensures diversity among candidates even it the hiring isn’t inclusive.

I think I get your ideas on divesting power but I think the devil is in the details. I’ve been through paneled interviews where the direct report manager doesn’t get to score candidates but is expect to select the highest scored person or justify not doing so. That’s not always a great process. I also agree that Union power can seriously impact hiring based on factors besides performance history, especially when power divested.

Farb said:

https://nypost.com/2021/03/07/education-dept-curbs-decision-on-race-based-affinity-groups/

So, can someone tell me how this is not considered racist?

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Yeah, pretty easy when you read it all.

The Decision by the DOE was made in the last few days of the Trump admin. However, it wasn't a final decision. I guess it was interim. Biden signed an executive order, that the DOE now needs to consider when making their final determination. Therefore, the decision is suspended or pending until they finish re-evaluating it.

It's not undoing it, it's just back on ice for now. Like many court cases, remanded, they often just need to add a criteria to consider or consider it within a different scope. It may or may not change the overall ruling.

“I do not have specific comments for you because the School District has not received any final decision from the U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Civil Rights (“OCR”). Last month, the proceedings were suspended by OCR pending its reconsideration of the case in light of the Executive Orders on racial equity issued by President Biden,” said Evanston-Skokie Supt. Devon Horton said in a statement to The Post.

“At this time, there is no final decision in place with which the School District can comply or to reject,” Horton said..

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They may reach the very same decision (that it's better to keep these talks in the overall group, not segregated), or if you're going to have segregated talks, let's students pick which grouping they want to be in. So, it's an opt in. That way, instead of assuming aptitudes or attitudes, you let students pick what aspect they are more interested in or what they think is more useful. However, I usually prefer more macro discussion that hit many topics, so all the kids get exposed to more ideas.

Farb said:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...ers-not-confident-joe-biden-is-up-to-the-job/

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pu..._hasn_t_held_white_house_press_conference_yet

I know a few on here would not like the first link so I have provided the link to the poll itself, it is, however behind a paywall.

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46% said they're not very concerned or not concerned at all versus 37% who said they're very concerned.. without looking at the breakdown from there I'd assume that this mostly fell along partisan lines.

Farb said:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...ers-not-confident-joe-biden-is-up-to-the-job/

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pu..._hasn_t_held_white_house_press_conference_yet

I know a few on here would not like the first link so I have provided the link to the poll itself, it is, however behind a paywall.

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I'd figure one is coming when he signs the relief bill. But he's also trying to have a message of mask usage and social distancing.

That being said, this is a long time, and Trump did have his first one 28 days into office. Of course, he also broke tradition of not really doing one even after he won the election.

But, Trump only did 1 press conference for all of 2017 by himself, and 20 joint. Trump had a lot in 2020-2021 likely due to the Rona.

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/statistics/data/presidential-news-conferences



Obama for reference.

Farb said:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/...ers-not-confident-joe-biden-is-up-to-the-job/

https://www.rasmussenreports.com/pu..._hasn_t_held_white_house_press_conference_yet

I know a few on here would not like the first link so I have provided the link to the poll itself, it is, however behind a paywall.

Click to expand...

I’m not concern. He mopped the floor with Trump during the debates. Biden did a town hall in late Feb.

Biden is not making himself the center of attention while major legislation is working through Congress. Many Rs wish Trump did less to insert himself into the legislative process. I would expect a press conference shortly before or after signing the relief bill.

DaveXA said:

Not to speak for B4you but I'm looking for examples as well. More towards, how do you get from point A to point B in regards to organizations to divest power. I'm not sure that's even possible. No organization is going to surrender its power completely and start over. That would be impractical.

How do you translate what you're suggesting needs to happen into something realistic and achievable? It just strikes me as more of a fantasy than something that could happen in a reasonable period of time.

And this is coming from someone who thinks justice, equality and fairness should be a foundational part of our thinking.

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After I go baseball with my son I’ll address this
But here’s an amuse bouche

GMRfellowtraveller said:

After I go baseball with my son I’ll address this
But here’s an amuse bouche

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The replies to that tweet are forking funny. Thanks for posting that. Lol. As for Disney, how do they let that happen? They're basically doing The Onion's work for them.

B4YOU said:

With DEI from post #207. I’m not sure I grasp the premise on inclusion failing when orgs are diverse.

The NFL lacks vertical diversity. However, they may be considered inclusive as players, coaches, and management are on committees for rules. For hiring, the Rooney rule ensures diversity among candidates even it the hiring isn’t inclusive.

I think I get your ideas on divesting power but I think the devil is in the details. I’ve been through paneled interviews where the direct report manager doesn’t get to score candidates but is expect to select the highest scored person or justify not doing so. That’s not always a great process. I also agree that Union power can seriously impact hiring based on factors besides performance history, especially when power divested.

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@DaveXA
here's my thinking/experience
you have a traditionally white management with a predominantly white board
like almost every such institution similar to yours, you've fielded complaints for years about soft (and many times hard) bigotry
you think, let me get on this DEI thing
so you get one of the few PoC on the management team, and then most of the rest of the PoC in your organization (bc you don't have DEI), BUT you want to appear FAIR so you also have 1/2 of the team filled with white people
(You look like the Disney Bobs, but you're trying your best bc you sense that this stuff was important to you 30 years ago when you cared about stuff)
now your management PoC long ago learned the lesson from Chappelle's "When keeping it real goes wrong" and they NEVER challenge the white organizational structure
you have 2 asians in your group - one's 1st generation and the other is 4th
you have 4 latinos but 2 of them pass for white
you have 6 african americans - all of whom have the more marginal jobs so are already uncomfortable in this position, plus they've already been part of every other diversity task force and saw that all of zero happened and there's no reason to trust whitey anymore this time
the ONLY noise that committee is going to hear will come from the white kid just out of grad school who doesn't know that the board is going to shut doesn't any proposal that has actual teeth
Why?
bc white people think DEI is a zero sum game and if someone else is gaining power, then they are losing power and they're not about to do that
you could show study after study after study after study showing that the progressive change would be a net positive for development, innovation, retention, et al, but that study will not untangle the deeply rooted belief that change means retaliation

GMRfellowtraveller said:

@DaveXA
here's my thinking/experience
you have a traditionally white management with a predominantly white board
like almost every such institution similar to yours, you've fielded complaints for years about soft (and many times hard) bigotry
you think, let me get on this DEI thing
so you get one of the few PoC on the management team, and then most of the rest of the PoC in your organization (bc you don't have DEI), BUT you want to appear FAIR so you also have 1/2 of the team filled with white people
(You look like the Disney Bobs, but you're trying your best bc you sense that this stuff was important to you 30 years ago when you cared about stuff)
now your management PoC long ago learned the lesson from Chappelle's "When keeping it real goes wrong" and they NEVER challenge the white organizational structure
you have 2 asians in your group - one's 1st generation and the other is 4th
you have 4 latinos but 2 of them pass for white
you have 6 african americans - all of whom have the more marginal jobs so are already uncomfortable in this position, plus they've already been part of every other diversity task force and saw that all of zero happened and there's no reason to trust whitey anymore this time
the ONLY noise that committee is going to hear will come from the white kid just out of grad school who doesn't know that the board is going to shut doesn't any proposal that has actual teeth
Why?
bc white people think DEI is a zero sum game and if someone else is gaining power, then they are losing power and they're not about to do that
you could show study after study after study after study showing that the progressive change would be a net positive for development, innovation, retention, et al, but that study will not untangle the deeply rooted belief that change means retaliation

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So the problem with a lack of DEI is that upper management is predominantly white - lacks diversity?

So what’s the solution? Is it Disney Bobs not chairing the committee? Is it limiting chairs or entire committees to PoCs? Is it excluding that white college grad? Is it excluding “white-passing” Latinos and Asians? Is it racial and gender quotas at every level of an organization?

GMRfellowtraveller said:

@DaveXA
here's my thinking/experience
you have a traditionally white management with a predominantly white board
like almost every such institution similar to yours, you've fielded complaints for years about soft (and many times hard) bigotry
you think, let me get on this DEI thing
so you get one of the few PoC on the management team, and then most of the rest of the PoC in your organization (bc you don't have DEI), BUT you want to appear FAIR so you also have 1/2 of the team filled with white people
(You look like the Disney Bobs, but you're trying your best bc you sense that this stuff was important to you 30 years ago when you cared about stuff)
now your management PoC long ago learned the lesson from Chappelle's "When keeping it real goes wrong" and they NEVER challenge the white organizational structure
you have 2 asians in your group - one's 1st generation and the other is 4th
you have 4 latinos but 2 of them pass for white
you have 6 african americans - all of whom have the more marginal jobs so are already uncomfortable in this position, plus they've already been part of every other diversity task force and saw that all of zero happened and there's no reason to trust whitey anymore this time
the ONLY noise that committee is going to hear will come from the white kid just out of grad school who doesn't know that the board is going to shut doesn't any proposal that has actual teeth
Why?
bc white people think DEI is a zero sum game and if someone else is gaining power, then they are losing power and they're not about to do that
you could show study after study after study after study showing that the progressive change would be a net positive for development, innovation, retention, et al, but that study will not untangle the deeply rooted belief that change means retaliation

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I guess what I'm trying to see is what all this looks like in practice. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with what you're posting as much as I'm looking for how we move forward in a practical, meaningful way that allows diversity to flourish.

As for white people and zero sum thinking, there's some of that, but certainly not all are like that. And we both know that ceding power is hard. Few people give up power willingly, and at some point, white people will probably become a minority group based on changing demographics. That will change things as well.

GMRfellowtraveller said:

After I go baseball with my son I’ll address this
But here’s an amuse bouche

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They're there more to show that the council has authority. But, let's not forget that Bob Iger is Jewish. When did Jewish become 'just white?'

Diversity and Inclusion is a whole lot more than Black, Brown, etc. It's male, female, trans, old, young, middle aged, it's the white guy from Louisiana, and the white guy from California, It's the white guy who immigrated from Poland, it's everything under the Sun that give a different perspective.

wardorican said:

They're there more to show that the council has authority. But, let's not forget that Bob Iger is Jewish. When did Jewish become 'just white?'

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during Seinfeld's run
(i'm not sure if i'm joking or not)

Diversity and Inclusion is a whole lot more than Black, Brown, etc. It's male, female, trans, old, young, middle aged, it's the white guy from Louisiana, and the white guy from California, It's the white guy who immigrated from Poland, it's everything under the Sun that give a different perspective.

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philosophically i think you are exactly correct - you should cast as wide a net as possible
in practice it seems that the more diversity breadth you get, the less depth (structural change)
if there's not a critical mass, that diversity will just get assimilated