Capitol Riot arrests (3 Viewers)

Saintman2884 said:

FWIW, I really despise this smug, elitist tendency among some progressives that gun owners or people who buy, collect, or own guns are paranoid, fundamentally anti-social rednecks with no college education, no good-paying jobs, and stupid. They have this strong, vivid stereotypical straw man in their minds they fester and nurture and spew it out in obnoxious, insulting ways and repeat it ad nauseam so much it must be true enough to keep justify believing it.

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My wife works at an upscale gun range. A great majority of the people that shop there are paranoid conspiracy theorists who swear that Biden is coming for their guns (they said the same thing about Clinton and Obama). They think that owning a gun makes them a "Patriot" and those that don't own guns or who support some gun control are "communists."

Similarly, they don't want to wear masks because "freedom." Well, that "freedom" has infected 6 of my wife's co-workers with Covid. One of the co-workers vowed to "never wear a mask" and that "Covid will disappear after the election." My wife was one of the few that wears a mask all the time while at work. Now, mask wearing has been made mandatory. I guess it just has to hit home before it becomes real.

I say this because the non-paranoid, college educated, intelligent gun owners need to stand up and call out the loons who believe guns are more important than anything else in the world. It may be guilt by association, but you are judged by the company you keep. I read a post by someone presumably from German who wrote, "There is a saying in Germany, what do you have when 11 people have dinner with a Nazi? A dozen Nazis." There is a gun cult in America, and it is dangerous. The intelligent gun owners need to step up and denounce the nuts in their group. If you don't, then you will just be one of the nuts dining with them at the table.

Sandman said:

Similarly, they don't want to wear masks because "freedom." Well, that "freedom" has infected 6 of my wife's co-workers with Covid. One of the co-workers vowed to "never wear a mask" and that "Covid will disappear after the election." My wife was one of the few that wears a mask all the time while at work. Now, mask wearing has been made mandatory. I guess it just has to hit home before it becomes real.

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Did you wife get any flak for wearing the mask form either customers or coworkers

that's always one of the main criticisms about republicans - nothing matters or is real until it affects them

The biggest homophobe does a 180 when their own child comes out then it's "What do you mean my son can't get married?!"

MT15 said:

Nobody in Chicago is traveling to Kentucky to buy a gun. They would have to travel through the entire state of Indiana to get to Kentucky, what would be the point? They could just buy a gun in Indiana.

I think that the take here has some merit, but he tends to lump progressives together just as he complains pretty bitterly about gun owners being lumped together.

There are people who stereotype gun owners, but I don’t believe it is nearly as widespread as is portrayed here.

The other consideration is that I have read recently that DC has far more police per capita than any other area in the US. Maybe that has something to do with the ability to enforce gun laws? Worth considering.

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I'm not entirely sure how they're counting it, but there are numerous law enforcement agencies in the District and that would likely be a big reason for the per capita numbers. The DCPD isn't necessarily that much larger than most other metro PDs, but when you add in other federal law enforcement agencies, they would bump that number up considerably. You have the Secret Service protecting the White House, USCP protecting the Capitol Complex and iirc US Park Police covers the National Mall and monuments. Also there is security at other federal buildings.

I don't necessarily think it's related to the DC gun laws specifically.

I think it would enhance the ability to enforce existing gun laws, though. That was the point, compared to Chicago, the higher number of law enforcement officers might have something to do with the ability to enforce the gun laws that exist.

Chicago has little to no enforcement of their gun laws, from what I understand.

Saintman2884 said:

Chicago gun laws are seen by many law enforcement experts and political analysts, or insiders as being as some of the strictest, most stringest in the country meaning unless you're a cop, or an exe member of local, state, or federal branch of law enforcement in Illinois, you can't open carry, the background checks, IIRC, are a lot longer, a bit more tedious, and more time-consuming in terms of paperwork from what Ive heard then other larger, metropolitan cities like Atlanta, Nashville, or New Orleans. Restrictive, I agree is more of an opinion or a perception on this issue because in some gun rights activists, it makes ordinary, last abiding citizens out to be paranoid, unintelligent militia types and paints them out or infers unnecessarily that their outcasts or dangerous, somehow.

Chicago's strict gun laws have also been criticized by politicians and experts on both sides because cracking down on guns, illegal or not, hasn't stopped the rising rate of gun-related homicide murder cases or gun-related violence. While thats a fair point certainly, what it doesn't touch on is that while Chicago's gun laws might be strict, people living there or in-state can still travel to and purchase, collect firearms in surrounding states with looser restrictions and favorable gun laws, like Indiana and Kentucky.

Its the same way with D.C.'s gun laws, no matter how restrictive, strict they are, if you have a very large, armed mob of insurrectionists, rioters coming in from maybe a majority of states with looser gun restrictions and less, bureaucratic red tape to obtain them, coming in armed with rifles, semiautomatic weapons like AR-15's, Brownings, etc. Its going to be very difficult for Capitol Police or DC police to be adequately prepared for scenarios like that to confront them. And unfortunately, in this day and time, that is a more urgent pressing set of issues that needs to be addressed.

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I think a bit part of the problem is how "politicians describe it".

Optimus Prime said:

Did you wife get any flak for wearing the mask form either customers or coworkers

that's always one of the main criticisms about republicans - nothing matters or is real until it affects them

The biggest homophobe does a 180 when their own child comes out then it's "What do you mean my son can't get married?!"

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More from the maskless co-workers. The official position of the range was that masks were not required, so she didn't have anyone throw a fit for having to wear one. They would just take off their mask once they were told that masks were not mandatory.

Sandman said:

I say this because the non-paranoid, college educated, intelligent gun owners need to stand up and call out the loons who believe guns are more important than anything else in the world. It may be guilt by association, but you are judged by the company you keep. I read a post by someone presumably from German who wrote, "There is a saying in Germany, what do you have when 11 people have dinner with a Nazi? A dozen Nazis." There is a gun cult in America, and it is dangerous. The intelligent gun owners need to step up and denounce the nuts in their group. If you don't, then you will just be one of the nuts dining with them at the table.

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This, above, all day long......well put....

MT15 said:

Nobody in Chicago is traveling to Kentucky to buy a gun. They would have to travel through the entire state of Indiana to get to Kentucky, what would be the point? They could just buy a gun in Indiana.

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... or Peoria.

I don't know how it is now, but back in the day, if you leave in N.O., you'd go to Chalmette to buy your stuff.

The other consideration is that I have read recently that DC has far more police per capita than any other area in the US. Maybe that has something to do with the ability to enforce gun laws? Worth considering.

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They not only have tighter security because it being the seat of government, they also have secret service, park police, FBI... even the postal inspectors are involved.

MT15 said:

I think it would enhance the ability to enforce existing gun laws, though. That was the point, compared to Chicago, the higher number of law enforcement officers might have something to do with the ability to enforce the gun laws that exist.

Chicago has little to no enforcement of their gun laws, from what I understand.

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Oh, there definitely is enforcement in Chicago, but it's uneven enforcement at best though. Even in DC, enforcement isn't consistent throughout the entire District. NE DC was long notorious for gun violence and there is still pockets of it in all quadrants of the city. But their main enforcement centers around the federal jurisdictions. It's a large area, but it's not most of the city.

Gun laws are only as good as the extent they're enforced. So your point is well taken.

Sometimes people's idiocrasy is so much well, idiocrasy....

Capitol Rioter Made It Easy For Feds By Wearing Jacket With His Business Phone Number On It

After the story came to light, the business owner expressed regret to a local media outlet... kind of.

"It seemed the cops were antagonizing us and letting them straight into the building in the front so I believe it was all set up for the Trump people. I knew I shouldn't have kicked in the window. I was upset and wasn't thinking rationally."

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Interestingly, Faulkner then claimed the reason he was upset and not thinking rationally was because he had been shot in the chest by police, shrapnel hit his face at one point and he felt using tear gas on the mob was inappropriate, conflicting with the above statement.

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Bigdaddysaints said:

Sometimes people's idiocrasy is so much well, idiocrasy....

Capitol Rioter Made It Easy For Feds By Wearing Jacket With His Business Phone Number On It

Capitol Rioter Made It Easy For Feds By Wearing Jacket With His Business Phone Number On It

One Capitol rioter made finding him so easy the FBI filed a criminal complaint about it.

www.comicsands.com

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What's become abundantly clear is that none those people feared local/federal law enforcement, the national guard/military or any repercussions what so ever for rioting, breaking into the Capitol, or threatening politicians lives. They truly thought they had the protection of Donald Trump on this. And initially, they where totally right.

It's just the whiplash reaction to what happened and could have happened has been severe and now there isn't a hole left for them to crawl into. They're all exposed.

Sandman said:

My wife works at an upscale gun range. A great majority of the people that shop there are paranoid conspiracy theorists who swear that Biden is coming for their guns (they said the same thing about Clinton and Obama). They think that owning a gun makes them a "Patriot" and those that don't own guns or who support some gun control are "communists."

Similarly, they don't want to wear masks because "freedom." Well, that "freedom" has infected 6 of my wife's co-workers with Covid. One of the co-workers vowed to "never wear a mask" and that "Covid will disappear after the election." My wife was one of the few that wears a mask all the time while at work. Now, mask wearing has been made mandatory. I guess it just has to hit home before it becomes real.

I say this because the non-paranoid, college educated, intelligent gun owners need to stand up and call out the loons who believe guns are more important than anything else in the world. It may be guilt by association, but you are judged by the company you keep. I read a post by someone presumably from German who wrote, "There is a saying in Germany, what do you have when 11 people have dinner with a Nazi? A dozen Nazis." There is a gun cult in America, and it is dangerous. The intelligent gun owners need to step up and denounce the nuts in their group. If you don't, then you will just be one of the nuts dining with them at the table.

Click to expand...

Okay, the idiots who refuse to wear masks to protect themselves from Covid-19 and defend this asinine reasoning by associating it with "their freedom" are deluded and their actions are mind-boggingly stupid. But if last year is any indication, you can find this irrational, careless mentality in lot more places and parts of society then just among gun owners or their odd, peculiar subculture. I mean come on Sandman we both know better than that.

Plus,.I'm sure some of that paranoid anti-gun control hysteria exists among some people in gun ranges but isn't it a bit of a reach to argue that this mentality exists in 30-35 other states among millions of Americans and how can that be verified unless me or you have traveled to and witnessed these same similar types of behaviors or sentiments be aired publicly.

And in terms of opposing some gun control legislation, some gun owners Ive talked to say they support reasonable, "common sense" legislation after school shootings like Sandy Hook or Parkland, what they dont want is British or European-styled gun control laws that have existed for centuries and weren't originally put there out of the aegis of public safety and good government, it was enacted by autocratic, repressive regimes as a safety valve mechanism to prevent popular uprisings, unrest against unjust laws or persecutions, or preventing revolutions. Look at how many failed popular uprisings, labor unrest in countries like UK, France, German states or unified Germany after 1871 or even the 1524 German Peasants Revolt, or how many would-be revolutions were trampled upon that had legitimate reasons were wiped out because the ruling regimes had most of the newer, sophisticated, deadlier weaponry, professional, well-trained soldiers and officer corps who surrounded, contained and decimated poorly-armed, poorly equipped peasants, factory workers or intellectuals. Look at the 1848 Revolutions and how and why most of them failed in various German states and how the failure of liberal parliamentarism to take root in Germany led to many individual German politicians, intellectuals, Junker aristrocrats, or autocratic Machiavellian types like Bismarck to successfully argue liberalism was a failure and that not only "blood and iron", could realistically create a powerful, unified, Prussian-dominated German state and that approach succeeded and the mutual fears, mistrust, and suspicion of a powerful, highly industrialized, militarized Germany with a keen interest and desire for Weltpolitk " Germany's place in the sun", led eventually to two disastrous World Wars in the 20th century.

Saintman2884 said:

Okay, the idiots who refuse to wear masks to protect themselves from Covid-19 and defend this asinine reasoning by associating it with "their freedom" are deluded and their actions are mind-boggingly stupid. But if last year is any indication, you can find this irrational, careless mentality in lot more places and parts of society then just among gun owners or their odd, peculiar subculture. I mean come on Sandman we both know better than that.

Plus,.I'm sure some of that paranoid anti-gun control hysteria exists among some people in gun ranges but isn't it a bit of a reach to argue that this mentality exists in 30-35 other states among millions of Americans and how can that be verified unless me or you have traveled to and witnessed these same similar types of behaviors or sentiments be aired publicly.

And in terms of opposing some gun control legislation, some gun owners Ive talked to say they support reasonable, "common sense" legislation after school shootings like Sandy Hook or Parkland, what they dont want is British or European-styled gun control laws that have existed for centuries and weren't originally put there out of the aegis of public safety and good government, it was enacted by autocratic, repressive regimes as a safety valve mechanism to prevent popular uprisings, unrest against unjust laws or persecutions, or preventing revolutions. Look at how many failed popular uprisings, labor unrest in countries like UK, France, German states or unified Germany after 1871 or even the 1524 German Peasants Revolt, or how many would-be revolutions were trampled upon that had legitimate reasons were wiped out because the ruling regimes had most of the newer, sophisticated, deadlier weaponry, professional, well-trained soldiers and officer corps who surrounded, contained and decimated poorly-armed, poorly equipped peasants, factory workers or intellectuals. Look at the 1848 Revolutions and how and why most of them failed in various German states and how the failure of liberal parliamentarism to take root in Germany led to many individual German politicians, intellectuals, Junker aristrocrats, or autocratic Machiavellian types like Bismarck to successfully argue liberalism was a failure and that not only "blood and iron", could realistically create a powerful, unified, Prussian-dominated German state and that approach succeeded and the mutual fears, mistrust, and suspicion of a powerful, highly industrialized, militarized Germany with a keen interest and desire for Weltpolitk " Germany's place in the sun", led eventually to two disastrous World Wars in the 20th century.

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i think you're strawmanning a bit - i'm not sure sandman said any of the things that you are counterpointing

I’m sorry I brought up “DC gun policy”.


“Rocky Mount terminated them from the police department Jan. 26.”

Police officers participating in Jan 6 really have zero excuses. I’m generally against “lose your job prior to conviction”, but I’m ok with this action given their selfies in the Capitol.

Saintman2884 said:

Okay, the idiots who refuse to wear masks to protect themselves from Covid-19 and defend this asinine reasoning by associating it with "their freedom" are deluded and their actions are mind-boggingly stupid. But if last year is any indication, you can find this irrational, careless mentality in lot more places and parts of society then just among gun owners or their odd, peculiar subculture. I mean come on Sandman we both know better than that.

Plus,.I'm sure some of that paranoid anti-gun control hysteria exists among some people in gun ranges but isn't it a bit of a reach to argue that this mentality exists in 30-35 other states among millions of Americans and how can that be verified unless me or you have traveled to and witnessed these same similar types of behaviors or sentiments be aired publicly.

And in terms of opposing some gun control legislation, some gun owners Ive talked to say they support reasonable, "common sense" legislation after school shootings like Sandy Hook or Parkland, what they dont want is British or European-styled gun control laws that have existed for centuries and weren't originally put there out of the aegis of public safety and good government, it was enacted by autocratic, repressive regimes as a safety valve mechanism to prevent popular uprisings, unrest against unjust laws or persecutions, or preventing revolutions. Look at how many failed popular uprisings, labor unrest in countries like UK, France, German states or unified Germany after 1871 or even the 1524 German Peasants Revolt, or how many would-be revolutions were trampled upon that had legitimate reasons were wiped out because the ruling regimes had most of the newer, sophisticated, deadlier weaponry, professional, well-trained soldiers and officer corps who surrounded, contained and decimated poorly-armed, poorly equipped peasants, factory workers or intellectuals. Look at the 1848 Revolutions and how and why most of them failed in various German states and how the failure of liberal parliamentarism to take root in Germany led to many individual German politicians, intellectuals, Junker aristrocrats, or autocratic Machiavellian types like Bismarck to successfully argue liberalism was a failure and that not only "blood and iron", could realistically create a powerful, unified, Prussian-dominated German state and that approach succeeded and the mutual fears, mistrust, and suspicion of a powerful, highly industrialized, militarized Germany with a keen interest and desire for Weltpolitk " Germany's place in the sun", led eventually to two disastrous World Wars in the 20th century.

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Homes, as we have seen with crystal clarity, when fascism comes to America, the NRA will be cheering it on.

Saintman2884 said:

Okay, the idiots who refuse to wear masks to protect themselves from Covid-19 and defend this asinine reasoning by associating it with "their freedom" are deluded and their actions are mind-boggingly stupid. But if last year is any indication, you can find this irrational, careless mentality in lot more places and parts of society then just among gun owners or their odd, peculiar subculture. I mean come on Sandman we both know better than that.

Plus,.I'm sure some of that paranoid anti-gun control hysteria exists among some people in gun ranges but isn't it a bit of a reach to argue that this mentality exists in 30-35 other states among millions of Americans and how can that be verified unless me or you have traveled to and witnessed these same similar types of behaviors or sentiments be aired publicly.

And in terms of opposing some gun control legislation, some gun owners Ive talked to say they support reasonable, "common sense" legislation after school shootings like Sandy Hook or Parkland, what they dont want is British or European-styled gun control laws that have existed for centuries and weren't originally put there out of the aegis of public safety and good government, it was enacted by autocratic, repressive regimes as a safety valve mechanism to prevent popular uprisings, unrest against unjust laws or persecutions, or preventing revolutions. Look at how many failed popular uprisings, labor unrest in countries like UK, France, German states or unified Germany after 1871 or even the 1524 German Peasants Revolt, or how many would-be revolutions were trampled upon that had legitimate reasons were wiped out because the ruling regimes had most of the newer, sophisticated, deadlier weaponry, professional, well-trained soldiers and officer corps who surrounded, contained and decimated poorly-armed, poorly equipped peasants, factory workers or intellectuals. Look at the 1848 Revolutions and how and why most of them failed in various German states and how the failure of liberal parliamentarism to take root in Germany led to many individual German politicians, intellectuals, Junker aristrocrats, or autocratic Machiavellian types like Bismarck to successfully argue liberalism was a failure and that not only "blood and iron", could realistically create a powerful, unified, Prussian-dominated German state and that approach succeeded and the mutual fears, mistrust, and suspicion of a powerful, highly industrialized, militarized Germany with a keen interest and desire for Weltpolitk " Germany's place in the sun", led eventually to two disastrous World Wars in the 20th century.

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You said the media was stereotyping gun owners. I just related my wife’s experience at her place of work. As I said, this is an upscale place, but the people who come fit most of the stereotypes. They buy into the election being stolen, they bought into Covid is a “scamdemic” and will go away after the election. The store sells (not just carries) merchandise with Confederate flags on them. My wife suggested that they not, but was told that they will continue to sell them.

You may not like how it is being portrayed, but a lot has a basis in fact. Right now, the gun cult will vote for MTG solely because of guns. The people my wife deals with have no desire to engage in any talk of reasonable gun control. They may say they do, but anytime you mention something specific, they say “no, not that.” I will do anything for gun control, but I won’t do that—is their theme song.

You may be open to some gun control, but the gun cult is not. You don’t like how they reflect on you? Call them out on their nonsense instead of attacking the media for pointing out their nonsense. Defending your “team” even when they are wrong is how Trump came into power, and how the Capitol was attacked.

Taurus said:

Homes, as we have seen with crystal clarity, when fascism comes to America, the NRA will be cheering it on.

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Dude, most fascist/authoritarian regimes or states arrive in countries that had failed democracies and usually the factors that are involved are socio-economic issues, complex ones, hyperinflation like in Weimar Germany in the early 1920's and extreme political polarization and rise of extremist idealogues, parties or charismatic, mesmerizing and highly-intelligent populist figures(Trump might fit into the first two categories, but hardly an intelligent political figure). Fascist regimes usually come from failed democracies, but their reasons for failure are very complex, nuanced, and in some cases,.like pre-Spanish Civil War mid-late 30's Spain, extremist parties and disruptive rhetoric and mistrust from both sides were responsible for tensions reaching a irreversible boiling point.

Its less well-known historically, but Hitler's rise to power couldve been made a lot more difficult if German left-wing anti-Nazi parties like the KPD(German Communist Party), and SPD(Social Democratic Party), had decided to form a political Popular Front that was unified and had millions of members, in some respects more popular supporters and sympathisers in huge urban areas, cities like Berlin, Hamburg, Essen, or Dusseldorf and they mostly controlled the large, trade/labor unions bitterly opposed to far-right fascist rhetoric or policies. They couldve made any transfer of power to Hitler's regime by calling a general strike like they'd done in 1923 to prevent the Kapp Putsch attempted coup. But Hitler and other key high-ranking Nazis knew the German left was disorganized, disgruntled and despised each other as much as they despised him, all dating back to SPD destroying the Sparticist Revolt after WWI in January 1919, and he exploited that disunity and the sense even among the German working classes that the left-leaning SPD Weimar government couldn't solve complex socio-economic issues like hyperinflation, mass employment, trying to endure and live with humiliating conditions imposed on them by victorious Allies at Versailles, having their economy, parts of their country broken up and partitioned, and made to be feel responsible for starting WWI(War Guilt clause), which was a completely ridiculous assertion. And how do we know and how can we be so sure some extremist far-left idealogues or groups won't be cheering it on or perhaps seeing it as a possible moment of reckoning? I mean, what do you call all those protests that went on in Portland, Oregon for over 6 months with protestors destroying, looting, ran sacking stores, businesses, homes, or smashing windows and defacing public or government property? Even Portland's mayor, Ted Wheeler, came to the conclusion these disturbances were getting out of control and condemned the violence.

It won't be just solely because of guns and extreme political unrest is caused by issues far more complex then just the government coming to take away their guns. To even infer that is insulting both of our intelligences, Taurus, and I know you're better then that.

Sandman said:

You said the media was stereotyping gun owners. I just related my wife’s experience at her place of work. As I said, this is an upscale place, but the people who come fit most of the stereotypes. They buy into the election being stolen, they bought into Covid is a “scamdemic” and will go away after the election. The store sells (not just carries) merchandise with Confederate flags on them. My wife suggested that they not, but was told that they will continue to sell them.

You may not like how it is being portrayed, but a lot has a basis in fact. Right now, the gun cult will vote for MTG solely because of guns. The people my wife deals with have no desire to engage in any talk of reasonable gun control. They may say they do, but anytime you mention something specific, they say “no, not that.” I will do anything for gun control, but I won’t do that—is their theme song.

You may be open to some gun control, but the gun cult is not. You don’t like how they reflect on you? Call them out on their nonsense instead of attacking the media for pointing out their nonsense. Defending your “team” even when they are wrong is how Trump came into power, and how the Capitol was attacked.

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Is this just the environment where your wife works is where the mentality is so toxic and the clients of gun owners buy into these ridiculous "conspiracy theories" spouted from MGT or how the election was stolen. Gun owners come from various different socio-economic backgrounds, and believe it or not different political backgrounds who buy and purchase guns for different reasons.

Just seems like you and your wife's experiences, while certainly informative and eye-opening, seems to come across as highly over-simplified, and not taking into whole massive gun communities in 35-40 different states blue states included. Is it wrong for me to be skeptical of believing or taking such assumptions at face value for even gun subcultures over so many states that probably are very different in many ways from one another?