Should we see the removal of statues like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. (2 Viewers)

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    TheRealTruth

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    Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

    www.realclearpolitics.com

    CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

    CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...
    www.realclearpolitics.com www.realclearpolitics.com


    I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?
     
    surada said:
    Look at the times and circumstances.. The first slaves were taken to New Amsterdam from Brazil by sugar planters.
    Click to expand...

    Heh, I can keep playing this game where I pepper you with question after question, but what's the point? I'll just take the ball home now because this isn't going to be productive.
     
    TheRealTruth said:
    Recently CNN aired an interview where one of the guests suggested what is in the topic.

    www.realclearpolitics.com

    CNN's Angela Rye: Washington, Jefferson Statues "Need To Come Down"

    CNN's Angela Rye called for statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to come down Thursday on the network. "American history is not all glorious... George Washington was a slave owner. We need to call slave owners out for what they are. Whether we think they were protecting American...
    www.realclearpolitics.com www.realclearpolitics.com


    I agree with the removal of confederate statues around the country, but should this also be done for founding fathers?
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    Washington was a slave owner.
     
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    Tony1Sainstfan said:
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    Perfection is the enemy of the good.

    And seriously, put anything in place of "when the statues are gone." It's a stupid, lazy argument.

    "OK. What will you do if Trump builds his wall? Will you work harder, study harder? Be a better Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother? Will you improve your community? Will society miraculously change for the better? Will illegal drug use go away, gangs put down guns and pick up a book?"

    "OK. What will you do if people get free healthcare? Will you work harder, study harder? Be a better Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother? Will you improve your community? Will society miraculously change for the better? Will illegal drug use go away, gangs put down guns and pick up a book?"

    "OK. What will you do if abortion is outlawed? Will you work harder, study harder? Be a better Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother? Will you improve your community? Will society miraculously change for the better? Will illegal drug use go away, gangs put down guns and pick up a book?"

    "OK. What will you do if policing policy is overhauled? Will you work harder, study harder? Be a better Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother? Will you improve your community? Will society miraculously change for the better? Will illegal drug use go away, gangs put down guns and pick up a book?"

    :jpshakehead:
     
    Maybe some think that taking down statues, defunding police, changing names of streets is a stupid and lazy way of dealing with the actual problem in this country. I think Elder was bring to light what he thinks are the actual problems in this country and how the issues we are all laser focused on in the country really doesn't do anything to help fix the underlying issue that no one really wants to talk about.
    Just my take on what Elder was trying to convey.
     
    Farb said:
    Maybe some think that taking down statues, defunding police, changing names of streets is a stupid and lazy way of dealing with the actual problem in this country. I think Elder was bring to light what he thinks are the actual problems in this country and how the issues we are all laser focused on in the country really doesn't do anything to help fix the underlying issue that no one really wants to talk about.
    Just my take on what Elder was trying to convey.
    Click to expand...
    I disagree.

    If his tweet was just "are we going to be willing to put in the hard work of making real changes to the underlying issues or will people become complacent once these actions are taken" then I could understand and agree. But the dismissive tone of the tweet (and the same dismissive tone in similar things I have seen especially from the right, like "will removing statues/confederate monuments really make everyone's lives markedly better overnight") seems to mock the idea that removing them is an important step in the process. These are major issues that will require a lot of hard work, but hard work always starts and continues with small steps that are part of the process. It's like asking if cutting the small front lawn of a blighted property is going to miraculously restore the whole building to pristine condition -- no, it won't, but it's one small part of the whole.

    "What you win in the immediate battles is little compared to the effort you put into it, but if you see that as a part of this total movement to build a new world, you know what cathedral you're building when you put your stone in."
    -- Anne Braden
     
    V Chip said:
    I disagree.

    If his tweet was just "are we going to be willing to put in the hard work of making real changes to the underlying issues or will people become complacent once these actions are taken" then I could understand and agree. But the dismissive tone of the tweet (and the same dismissive tone in similar things I have seen especially from the right, like "will removing statues/confederate monuments really make everyone's lives markedly better overnight") seems to mock the idea that removing them is an important step in the process. These are major issues that will require a lot of hard work, but hard work always starts and continues with small steps that are part of the process. It's like asking if cutting the small front lawn of a blighted property is going to miraculously restore the whole building to pristine condition -- no, it won't, but it's one small part of the whole.

    "What you win in the immediate battles is little compared to the effort you put into it, but if you see that as a part of this total movement to build a new world, you know what cathedral you're building when you put your stone in."
    -- Anne Braden
    Click to expand...
    Fair point, and I can see your side, but I do disagree.

    Let me ask you this, do you think we have reached a point in this purge where it is becoming a little bit silly now? If this was about just removing 'traitors' and 'racists' then you would probably have a lot of American's behind the issue because American's are good people at the core, they want to do right, they want to see their fellow Americans happy and doing well in this country. Instead, we have people wanting to take down, change the stupidest things and that makes people pause and think "I thought this was about racially offensive statues?". Maybe is goes back to the 'messaging' we were all discussing. I don't know. But to a lot of people this is not feeling like a time where we are making positive strides in race and taking down 'traitors', but rather there is an undercurrent, that I think everyone feels. It feels more sinister than positive.

    We have gotten to point where if someone does not like something they will scream about it and it will begin a process that ends in something being removed without actual dialogue in the community. This is usually some politician that is more worried about votes than the actual 'issue'.

    As far as one side "left vs right' being dismissive, you can't in good faith call on only one side being guilty of that.
     
    Farb said:
    Fair point, and I can see your side, but I do disagree.

    Let me ask you this, do you think we have reached a point in this purge where it is becoming a little bit silly now? If this was about just removing 'traitors' and 'racists' then you would probably have a lot of American's behind the issue because American's are good people at the core, they want to do right, they want to see their fellow Americans happy and doing well in this country. Instead, we have people wanting to take down, change the stupidest things and that makes people pause and think "I thought this was about racially offensive statues?". Maybe is goes back to the 'messaging' we were all discussing. I don't know. But to a lot of people this is not feeling like a time where we are making positive strides in race and taking down 'traitors', but rather there is an undercurrent, that I think everyone feels. It feels more sinister than positive.

    We have gotten to point where if someone does not like something they will scream about it and it will begin a process that ends in something being removed without actual dialogue in the community. This is usually some politician that is more worried about votes than the actual 'issue'.

    As far as one side "left vs right' being dismissive, you can't in good faith call on only one side being guilty of that.
    Click to expand...
    When you say the more "sinister" stuff, are you referring to the (what I perceive to be (few)) people who want to remove statues and monuments to the founders, or is there more to it than that?
     
    Brandon13 said:
    When you say the more "sinister" stuff, are you referring to the (what I perceive to be (few)) people who want to remove statues and monuments to the founders, or is there more to it than that?
    Click to expand...
    I should not have said that, because you ask a fair question and I can't give you a rational and fair answer. I have not been able to put it together in my head in order to relay it properly where it makes sense. My views have changed on this subject 100 times in 100 different directions in the just the past 48 hours.
    I guess to give you an answer: Maybe but I think it might be more than just the founders but also on the whole existence of this country or maybe the values that created it?

    Not a great answer becasue I don't have one yet but if you read my answer above in the voice of Ron Burgundy reading from a teleprompter might give you an idea of how confident I am. LOL
     
    Farb said:
    Fair point, and I can see your side, but I do disagree.

    Let me ask you this, do you think we have reached a point in this purge where it is becoming a little bit silly now? If this was about just removing 'traitors' and 'racists' then you would probably have a lot of American's behind the issue because American's are good people at the core, they want to do right, they want to see their fellow Americans happy and doing well in this country. Instead, we have people wanting to take down, change the stupidest things and that makes people pause and think "I thought this was about racially offensive statues?". Maybe is goes back to the 'messaging' we were all discussing. I don't know. But to a lot of people this is not feeling like a time where we are making positive strides in race and taking down 'traitors', but rather there is an undercurrent, that I think everyone feels. It feels more sinister than positive.

    We have gotten to point where if someone does not like something they will scream about it and it will begin a process that ends in something being removed without actual dialogue in the community. This is usually some politician that is more worried about votes than the actual 'issue'.

    As far as one side "left vs right' being dismissive, you can't in good faith call on only one side being guilty of that.
    Click to expand...
    First off, I wouldn't call it a "purge." It's more a correction of something that shouldn't have been done in the first place (venerating the Lost Cause and the Confederacy). I do think some people are going overboard -- this shouldn't be about removing statues to people or causes that did some things wrong/incorrectly/immoral in the past -- Washington for example. But as loud as those voices may seem, they are a tiny minority of the people on the left who want to make such changes. I mean, some people on the right would not only like to leave all the Confederate statues/memorials but would like to place even more of them. We can't always react to the extremes and should pay more attention to the more moderate/mainstream of the people who we still disagree with.

    I don't think anything is sinister in this, so not sure what you are feeling there.

    Regarding your second to last paragraph -- it's interesting now to see the right not liking the removal of things, or what they feel is the silencing of their voices, when for decades, even centuries, that was a big tool of the right (burning books, silencing/jailing civil rights advocates, ostracization of LGBTQ people, etc). Heck, it still sometimes is -- protests and petitions against mosques, "war on christmas" and protests/boycotts of companies who dared say "Happy Holidays," boycotts of Disney for having "gay day." We definitely should have dialogue about these issues, and shutting them down is counterproductive in the end.

    And I wasn't calling on only one side -- I was just pointing out that the right was the large majority of the group dismissing the idea that removing the statues could have some benefit.
     
    V Chip said:
    Perfection is the enemy of the good.

    And seriously, put anything in place of "when the statues are gone." It's a stupid, lazy argument.

    "OK. What will you do if Trump builds his wall? Will you work harder, study harder? Be a better Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother? Will you improve your community? Will society miraculously change for the better? Will illegal drug use go away, gangs put down guns and pick up a book?"

    "OK. What will you do if people get free healthcare? Will you work harder, study harder? Be a better Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother? Will you improve your community? Will society miraculously change for the better? Will illegal drug use go away, gangs put down guns and pick up a book?"

    "OK. What will you do if abortion is outlawed? Will you work harder, study harder? Be a better Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother? Will you improve your community? Will society miraculously change for the better? Will illegal drug use go away, gangs put down guns and pick up a book?"

    "OK. What will you do if policing policy is overhauled? Will you work harder, study harder? Be a better Dad, Mom, Sister, Brother? Will you improve your community? Will society miraculously change for the better? Will illegal drug use go away, gangs put down guns and pick up a book?"

    :jpshakehead:
    Click to expand...
    First of all perfection is the enemy of the good....you really just said that? WOW!!! Perfection is what we should be striving to achieve. If you aren’t then you as a human are a lazy person and willing to accept mediocrity. Now to answer your weak attempts to try a form a argument.
    When Trump finishes the wall my friends who work in agriculture won’t have to worry if their jobs will be taken by cheaper illegal immigrants who’s first move coming here was to break a law.
    What will I do if people get free healthcare? I will pay higher taxes to take care of people to damn lazy to work. I will pay higher taxes for illegal immigrants who come here because they know they can get benefits from our government that they never paid a dime into.
    What will I do if abortion is outlawed? I will be happy for the people I know who are trying really hard to adopt a child and in some cases traveling to other countries just to make that happen. Maybe then women will actually start using their right to choose. Choose to have unprotected sex with someone in order to have a baby. Choose to make sure their partners are using a condom so they don’t get pregnant. Choosing to use birth control. I will be happy for the millions of babies who don’t die because of stupid decisions. If it is outlawed then I won’t have to question why does the left say a fetus is not a human but if someone shoots a pregnant woman they get charged with two counts of murder. Abortion should be something that black people are standing up and screaming about more so than police abuse. We all know that Margaret Sanger wanted birth control to eliminate blacks so why are you for it? Do you have so much hatred for blacks that you will sit back and allow abortions continue to happen in black communities at a higher rate than with whites?
    What will I do if policing policy is overhauled? Stand up and cheer. I’m glad Trump took the first steps in doing just that. I’m all for putting social workers and paramedics with police officers on calls for mentally ill people and domestic violence. But all of that is going to be harder to achieve because of the calls to abolish the police and in some cases outlaw prisons. Your own party is facilitating those arguments and that is a disgrace.
     
    Tony1Sainstfan said:
    First of all perfection is the enemy of the good....you really just said that? WOW!!! Perfection is what we should be striving to achieve. If you aren’t then you as a human are a lazy person and willing to accept mediocrity. Now to answer your weak attempts to try a form a argument.
    When Trump finishes the wall my friends who work in agriculture won’t have to worry if their jobs will be taken by cheaper illegal immigrants who’s first move coming here was to break a law.
    What will I do if people get free healthcare? I will pay higher taxes to take care of people to damn lazy to work. I will pay higher taxes for illegal immigrants who come here because they know they can get benefits from our government that they never paid a dime into.
    What will I do if abortion is outlawed? I will be happy for the people I know who are trying really hard to adopt a child and in some cases traveling to other countries just to make that happen. Maybe then women will actually start using their right to choose. Choose to have unprotected sex with someone in order to have a baby. Choose to make sure their partners are using a condom so they don’t get pregnant. Choosing to use birth control. I will be happy for the millions of babies who don’t die because of stupid decisions. If it is outlawed then I won’t have to question why does the left say a fetus is not a human but if someone shoots a pregnant woman they get charged with two counts of murder. Abortion should be something that black people are standing up and screaming about more so than police abuse. We all know that Margaret Sanger wanted birth control to eliminate blacks so why are you for it? Do you have so much hatred for blacks that you will sit back and allow abortions continue to happen in black communities at a higher rate than with whites?
    What will I do if policing policy is overhauled? Stand up and cheer. I’m glad Trump took the first steps in doing just that. I’m all for putting social workers and paramedics with police officers on calls for mentally ill people and domestic violence. But all of that is going to be harder to achieve because of the calls to abolish the police and in some cases outlaw prisons. Your own party is facilitating those arguments and that is a disgrace.
    Click to expand...
    ‘The perfect is the enemy of the good’ is a reaction to a common political stall tactic

    Someone makes a good proposal and it gets hit with dozens of ‘well it's not perfect for this or that tiny reason, so let’s wait until it’s 100% perfect before acting’
    And obviously it’s never going to be perfect so it’s usually just a tool to derail the good idea
     

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